Topic: Re: ^Issa, (Jesus) the prophet of ALLAH

[Hans]

I said before, since Islam and Christianity are very different in crucial areas, one of the 2 is right. You are either here to convince us that we should make a new relegion where both views are right(which we refuse). Or asking about Islam.I said before that I may critisize other relegions not for the sake of insulting the followers of this relegion but for the higher pupose of inviting them to Islam as we'd be saving them in the afterlifeyour reply to you
if you think it shouldn't be logical, then?

no, no, no you misunderstand me. You can criticize the Christian viewpoint by fair arguments all you want - afterall, this is a site about Islam - it is supposed to explain you points - Sometimes that is better done by showing what others do wrong. But saying that people are stupid because they are not Muslims is not a rational argument. Its a 3 year old kid speaking. You can do better than that.

Suite yourself. You asked about Jesus and we replied. The fact that both relegions see the same person differently will be considered by either side an insult.

Yes, and I was very well received. Thanks.

Again, it was not your viewpoint on Jesus I reacted on. It was you implying non-Muslims are stupid. Led astray.... fine, but not stupid ! That's all.

You have no respect for our Prophet. And we have lots of respect to Jesus(Insulting him is blasphemy. like saying he says to his mother: Bring the wine woman!) So lets stop the debate here.
God created what we call in Arabic "^Akel". It deferenciate us all from animals.

Wrong. I now know how dear your hold him. I have told you repeatedly. But he is not part of the Christian tradition, so I cannot regard him in the same way you do. But still I should be sensitive to your feelings.

I don't understand your quote "bring me wine, woman".

So lets stop the debate here.

Yes. I feel we are not disscussing the same issue here.

You are welcome anytime.

Thanks.

[Advisor]

I don't understand your quote "bring me wine, woman".

I heard Some say that Jesus said that to his mother. Mary may Allah reward her
It's in creed of Islam that Allah doesn't Send a Prophet that drinks wine and talks to his mother like that.
Note that I'm not suggesting the you Hans say that you beleive he did that. It was just an example.

[Hans]

I heard Some say that Jesus said that to his mother. Mary may Allah reward her
It's in creed of Islam that Allah doesn't Send a Prophet that drinks wine and talks to his mother like that.
Note that I'm not suggesting the you Hans say that you beleive he did that. It was just an example.

I'm not sure what the bible says.  As I told you a while ago, the Bible is interpreted - some things, we believe, are cultural norms of the time it was written - not nesesarily the wish of God. This would be one such case - Afterall people spoke differently to each other 2.000 yeas ago. Another example is that one of Jesus' copanions says that women should be silent in meetings. In protestant Christianity we even have female priests - blive mw, they are just as good as men. Catholics don't have that howeve.

Most Christians don't live by the exact word of the bible, but rather the principles.

To Christians it is 100% sure that Jesus approved of wine:

1) According to Christian tradition one of Jesus' wonders was to make wine out of water at a wedding. 2) The most holy and central Christian ceremony is the communion - eating a small bread and drinking wine as symbols to the body and blood sacrificed by Jesus to free the world of sin. The tradition was started by Jesus himself the night before his crucifiction.

But again, I get this from my holy book - your holy book may say something else and I respect that. Actually, many Christians do not drink alcohol either - they believe it is not in thread with their religion. But formally there is no ban on Alcohol in Christianity.

And we all can agree that we should be nice to our mothers - I am sure Jesus was a perfect son to Mary. Gods son or not, we can also agree he was great prophet.






 

[samsparky]

Hans,

You admitted some important points in your post.

Your general ideas centre around not following the bible completely because you do not believe that it is genuinely containing what God Revealed completely.

You believe that somewhere along the way some people may have added things or changed things.

Yet you still feel safe picking out from that mix what you think is genuine.

Where would you know from?

Our argument is that the true Bible no longer exists.

That the way to know the truth about Jesus now is to know what Prophet MuHammad said about him.

Why?

Because Prophet MuHammad was also supported by miracles.

Miracles that could not be copied by other people to discredit him.

Like Prophet Jesus's miracles.

All Prophets came with 1 message from God.

The jews, christians and Muslims can recognise some similarities in their teachings because all Prophets came with 1 message.

But just like you said some teachings in the bible got distorted after a while - the same happened to the jews.

What remains is the teachings of the last Prophet - Prophet MuHammad - It's the same belief as all Prophets and Prophet Jesus when he comes to this earth again will reinforce that.

   

[Hans]

True, the bible was written by different people. maybe it was altered, but that doesn't change the ideas. Yes, we feel safe picking out things. It is something Christians have discussed, argued and killd each other about for centuries - just like Muslims do not agree 100%. Some Christian fundamentalists believe the Bible is Gods exact words. They are Christian "Wahabis" and I don't like or agree with them at all.

There were many prophets - some genuine, many were considered fakes by some and real by others.

1.2 Billion people think Mohammad was real, he founded a religion, so to me he is real. In my view, maybe he was sent to guide the people of Arabia ?  A look at Gods creation will reveal how he loves diversity -Animals, plants, humans are all created in many different looks. To me it is very much possible that God intended to guide us along different roads, yet in the same direction. After all, if he wished us to be alike, it would be a small thing for him to make us alike. (How hindus fit in this I don't know)

That was my personal view, just to make sure you don't think the following is disrespectfull.

I am not a priest and my knowledge of Islam is very limited, so the following is not an experts view, only an attempt to clearify some Christian views.

Mohammad is not recognized by Christians for several reasons.

1) Clearly the life of Jesus is very different in the new Testament and the Quran. Since the Bible was written much earlier and by people who witnessed the life of Jesus, Christians cannot accept Mohammads views which turn up 600 years later. He is simply not considered as reliable as a witness who was actually there.

2) Core Christian beliefs are gone the Quran: Most important the notion of Jesus sacrificing himself thereby saving all people from sin. But there are others too. Again, Mohammad changes the old stories many years later to support his own interpretation. 

3) The Quran (as I understand it) is represents a return to the "hardline" jewish beliefs of the Bible's old Testament and as such it doesn't bring any news. In Christianity Jesus preaches forgiveness, love and tolerance. It is a break with some parts of the old testament and what separates Christians from Jews. From Islam I hear anger, Jihad, death to the infidels, in short: Intolerance and a demand for the faithfull to dominate others by use of violence. I think meybe it is because Mohammad had to win Mecca back by the sword ?

4) Islam seems (to me) to represent the laws, morals and norms of the 6th century Arabia. Indeed many rules are clearly Arabic and ill suited for other nations. The Bible doesn't give as many detailed rules. It sets up some guidelines (you shall not steal) so it fits better the wider number of nations.

It's late and I can't think of others right now, but I'm sure a priest could find some more.

[Advisor]

Praise be to Allah, And I humbly ask Allah to raise the rank of Prophet Muhammad.

1) Clearly the life of Jesus is very different in the new Testament and the Quran. Since the Bible was written much earlier and by people who witnessed the life of Jesus, Christians cannot accept Mohammads views which turn up 600 years later. He is simply not considered as reliable as a witness who was actually there.

Sam said he was supported by miracles so this means that he is the messenger of Allah. Thus what he says is the truth.

And in anyway, this issue was discussed here before. Lots of the -so called-bibles were written by people who came after Jesus so this also applies to them.

2) Core Christian beliefs are gone the Quran: Most important the notion of Jesus sacrificing himself thereby saving all people from sin. But there are others too. Again, Mohammad changes the old stories many years later to support his own interpretation.

A person should seek the truth. And he may not have been raised to it. So instead of refusing any notion that his beleifs are wrong, he may find logic in other beleifs.

3) The Quran (as I understand it) is represents a return to the "hardline" jewish beliefs of the Bible's old Testament and as such it doesn't bring any news. In Christianity Jesus preaches forgiveness, love and tolerance. It is a break with some parts of the old testament and what separates Christians from Jews. From Islam I hear anger, Jihad, death to the infidels, in short: Intolerance and a demand for the faithfull to dominate others by use of violence. I think meybe it is because Mohammad had to win Mecca back by the sword ?

I never understood how can Christians aknowledge -so called- old testment- as it is with so many contradictions with - so called- new testment.
The Quraan speaks about Jihad but it's not all about it....
It's an honorble thing that is very rewardable.
"Death to the infedels"? I'm not going to ask of what verse are you speaking but just to tell you something you can ask any Muslim(it's a well known fact):
Muhammad urged his people in Macca for 13 years to listen to him and become Muslims. After his migration to Madina. He fought for 8 years.
Macca is a city surrounded by mountains, 2 of them are big ones.
One day after Muhammad was treated badly from the "infidels"(insults, stoning,...) Jebril the angel of revelation came to him and said that he brought the angel of mountains with him and that he is willing to drop the 2 mountains on them if Muhammad wanted (Allah ordered Jibril to ask him that and Allah knows what Muhammad will answer. since Allah knows all. The purpose was to show why Muhammad is the best of all creation). Muhammad answer was what means:"No, but I pray their offspring will be ones that beleive in no God but Allah".

4) Islam seems (to me) to represent the laws, morals and norms of the 6th century Arabia. Indeed many rules are clearly Arabic and ill suited for other nations. The Bible doesn't give as many detailed rules. It sets up some guidelines (you shall not steal) so it fits better the wider number of nations.

The laws of what we call "Jahelia" (Era of ignorance) the time before Islam in Hijaz and the surrounding area where very different. And very unJust. Islam cancelled most of the weird laws. and United the people.
in the so called bible, There are things like an eye for an eye. It's Just that christians of these days view them as guidelines. This was not the case 1000~600 years ago. People were getting burned on sticks in the name of the -so called- bible.

This will not Happen to Quraan. It's rules may seem strict to some non-Muslims. But we as Muslims will never think of them as "guidelines".

[samsparky]

Hans, I don't want to inhibit you from reading what Advisor wrote but I also want to add some points.

True, the bible was written by different people. maybe it was altered, but that doesn't change the ideas. Yes, we feel safe picking out things. It is something Christians have discussed, argued and killd each other about for centuries - just like Muslims do not agree 100%. Some Christian fundamentalists believe the Bible is Gods exact words. They are Christian "Wahabis" and I don't like or agree with them at all.

Muslims all have the same Qur'aan and believe in it completely. They do not deny even 1 letter of it. Radicals like wahhabis don't come about because of following the Qur'aan but rather because of interpretting the Qur'aan the incorrect way. How do you we know the correct way to interpret the Qur'aan? Through the chain of knowledge which runs from trustworthy people to trustworthy people from the Companions to us.

There were many prophets - some genuine, many were considered fakes by some and real by others. 1.2 Billion people think Mohammad was real, he founded a religion, so to me he is real. In my view, maybe he was sent to guide the people of Arabia ?  A look at Gods creation will reveal how he loves diversity -Animals, plants, humans are all created in many different looks. To me it is very much possible that God intended to guide us along different roads, yet in the same direction. After all, if he wished us to be alike, it would be a small thing for him to make us alike. (How hindus fit in this I don't know)

The way to know whether someone who claims to be a Prophet is truly a Prophet is if they performed miracles. Miracles are extra-ordinary actions which happen on the hands of Prophets in agreement with their claim and can not be copied to discredit them. If a Prophet performs a miracle, that means that he is sent by God. Prophets don't "found" Religions. They convey the message to the people to worship God and they tell the people the same thing about God, His Attributes and other Prophets. There are no contradictions in the information they convey because the basic belief involves the exact same teachings. Hence the difference in belief between groups of people claiming to be following Prophets of God can not be justified. The difference in information about God and about Prophets of God must be a result of change from the true path.

[Hans]

It's Just that christians of these days view them as guidelines. This was not the case 1000~600 years ago. People were getting burned on sticks in the name of the -so called- bible.

This will not Happen to Quraan. It's rules may seem strict to some non-Muslims. But we as Muslims will never think of them as "guidelines".

You compare Christians of the Middle Ages with modern day Muslims.

In the Middle Ages Christians burned heretics. So did Muslims. Christians don't do it any more - Muslims still do.
You call it divine order, I call it lack of development.

Christians have acknowledged it was wrong. When will Islam do the same ?





 

[Hans]

Muslims all have the same Qur'aan and believe in it completely. They do not deny even 1 letter of it.

Yes and No. Same Quran, but just like Christians, Muslims come in all degrees, from the non-believer who goes to mosque only to be seen to the devoted would-be suicide bomber. 

Radicals like wahhabis don't come about because of following the Qur'aan but rather because of interpretting the
Qur'aan the incorrect way.

I thought you didn't interpret the Quran ?

Just like in Christianity there are many interpretations in Islam. I know you all long for unity, but it is not reality now, so it cannot be used as an argument against Christians.

How do you we know the correct way to interpret the Qur'aan? Through the chain of knowledge which runs from trustworthy people to trustworthy people from the Companions to us.

True. That's how we as humans learn. But it isn't a scientific proof. It is belief and highly biased.

George Bush is also considered by many to be a trustworthy person.

We as humans do know right from wrong in our hearts. The question is if we let others decide for us - unfortunately religion have been misused to stir up hatred against others. Your intolerant, unforgiving attitude towards those who do not subscribe to the TAI exact version of the truth is a good example. Not so important, but since you claim to be moderate, it is very telling of Islam. And you wonder why Europeans become increasingly more hostile to Muslims ? Well, take a look at youself.

The way to know whether someone who claims to be a Prophet is truly a Prophet is if they performed miracles. Miracles are extra-ordinary actions which happen on the hands of Prophets in agreement with their claim and can not be copied to discredit them. If a Prophet performs a miracle, that means that he is sent by God. Prophets don't "found" Religions. They convey the message to the people to worship God and they tell the people the same thing about God, His Attributes and other Prophets. There are no contradictions in the information they convey because the basic belief involves the exact same teachings. Hence the difference in belief between groups of people claiming to be following Prophets of God can not be justified. The difference in information about God and about Prophets of God must be a result of change from the true path.

Miracles witnessed by people who would likely benefit from Mohammad being accepted as Prophet rather than imposter or charlatan. It is no different from the Evangelists of the bible. They too had a lot to gain by teling good stories about Jesus. Again it boils down to belief. It is not science.

As I said before, I accept Muhammad as a Prophet to the Arabs, but no matter how many prophets you name, I belive that the New Testament is Gods will for me and my people. Not your harsh, intolerant and unforgiving ways.

Why can't you accept that Christians have a right to be here too ? 

[samsparky]

Hans there's a difference between claiming to be Muslim and actually being Muslim. So let me repeat my line

Muslims all have the same Qur'aan and believe in it completely. They do not deny even 1 letter of it.

And by the way suicide bombing is not something praised in Islaam. I can't believe you still don't have that clear. A devoted Muslim sticks to the authentic interpretation of the Qur'aan and Hadeeth obtained from the authentic chains of Knowledge and does not become a radical or an extremist (going off on their own and misinterpreting Verses and Hadeeths).

What do you mean you thought we don't interpret the Qur'aan - we take the interpretation through authentic chains so that the true interpretation is not lost.

Hans, you might think that just because there's a lot of terrorists being put on tv that they are the majority- but you are way off. By far, the people of truth who follow the correct creed of Islaam are the majority - by far.

When I mentioned the chain of trustworthy narrators, it is logical to follow it. I meant that they are trustworthy to the extent that it is illogical to think they would lie. Their lives have been studied and their descriptions given (e.g. forgetful or has lied before).

And often, it is not just through 1 chain of narrators that Knowledge reaches us but through many. And so the more chains there is, the more reliable if all the info is matching up.

It is definitely not similar to believing Bush because bush is one person. He is not analysed in terms of whether he has ever lied in his life and there is not many ways for many americans to check if his stories are true.

As for each person knowing what is right and wrong in their heart - that's detailed. If someone was living in the bush for example he wouldn't just suddenly know what is the right and wrong of many things. But what he would know from observation is that this world could not have existed without a Creator.

The Muslim who knows what is right feels happy and thankful to God and wants to show others the light and reach out a hand towards them out of mercy for them because if they do not believe in God and the Messengers of God while they are accountable, they will be in Hellfire forever in the Hereafter. And it's upsetting to think that anyone could just believe the other is going to Hell and not give him any advice.

When I was referring to Prophets' miracles and it being narrated by group to group in a way where it is impossible for all those people to agree to lie (i feel like i'm repeating myself) then it is logical to believe it. Because it is narrated by group to group in a way where it is impossible for all those people to agree to lie.

I can't believe you have been here so long yet you still stereotype us with wahhabi attributes. We don't want to kill you far out!! Allaah sent Messengers and Prophets to guide the people to believe in Him. They taught the same things about God and the Hereafter. The one who is accountable (sane, pubescent and heard the basic message: There is only 1 God and MuHammad is a Messenger of God) and rejects this message will be accountable for that rejection.

All we can do for you Hans is make du^aa' (supplication) and hope that you open your heart and stop clinging to the wahhabi image and attributing it to us.

And I'll just reply for the post you aimed at Advisor. Hans, you are claiming that the christians that were closer to Prophet Jesus's time on earth were more off track than those that are further away. It is either that you believe those Middle Ages christians were already misguided or otherwise you would be saying that Prophet Jesus taught them to do as they did.

And please be careful with what you say about Rules Revealed by God. He knows more about us than we know about ourselves and we are in no position to claim that we know better.