Topic: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?

[Emilee]

no  there are no profets between jesus and mohammed, Jesus was also backed with miracles.
who testefied of Mohammeds miracles?
Not only his diciples and eyewitnesses testified from Jesus miracles but also Romain adverseries who oppressed the christians wrote letters to eachother and describing to eachother Jesus work and miracles, I borrowed the information to someone otherwise I would give you the names.

your second answer I don't understand, although I find my argument(1person is more influensial as 45 person) a strong one

You should read the new testament( ingil), because there is only that true one and the koran won't say a word of it's content. It's logic that if you want people to accept your theology that you give an other theology also a chance.

the only thing what I can find in Crescent's argumentation about the 'original' ingil is that it disappears in heaven. It exists in heaven, than it is not a revelation and has no implication for us.

Christians(christianity) started just after Jesus Christ death by his followers this was based upon jewish religion. Because the jews deviated from the original revelation, they misused it and turned the law towards their own desire, it was nessecerarly to send someone to enlight them of the true meaning. that's is why christianity is not a different religion than the jewish, but just a completion.

you forgot to answer following questions:
- Is there any indication outside the koran that there was something like islam before Mohammed   came???
- What about scriptures older than 7000years? they don't count?

sorry for crossing the red line, i'll take note!

In my old testament (translated from the original manuscripts) I see no profet going through the same proces that Mohammed went through.

I agree with your idea of the devil.

I made one mistake: in case of throne, that one is found in the bible to exist in heaven,  but sitting doesn't neccesseraly testify of weakness. A throne with no one to sit on is quite meaningless, it contributes to his splendour I assume.

Father must be spiritually understood, it means that he has the same relational additude towards us and Jesus as a father would have towards his children. (to love, care, give and dicipline)

An angel and Holy spririt is very different. The ingil based upon Jesus words explanes God as one beeing, but three different expressions or functions. It stresses that they are one in work, purpose or goal. The Holy Spirit is there to reveal the word to us. That's why an unbeliever can't understand the bible if God would'nt want it to be, the Holy Spirit as Jesus origins from the father.

that same ingil testifies that Holy Spirit made it possible for Maria to be pregnant without having an affaire with a man. Joseph was the father in the sense he raised Him.

How can Abraham be a muslim if God makes his grandson an israelite or jew? In Abrahams time there was only one general(not named) religion.
So you confirm that Israel(fist jacob) is the start of the Isrealites, God chosen people and to them his plan and identity was revealed in the first place. In the Tawrat that we use based on old manuscrpts there are family lines that lead to David, Salomon and those where the kings of the Israelites at that time. A muslim can not be a leader of a jewish nation.

Christians believe in God the father, God the son and God Holy Sprit.
After Jesus' resurrection he has been gloryfied(his body) and the father gave him all authority over humanity. Like we said because the Holy Spirit is in him fully he can be called God, In the sense that they are one in will and work. If we would be totally holy and righteous we could be called Gods.
But I understand that you consider this title as higest form of authority.
By the way, Genesis first book of tawrat sais in second verse: "the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters".

God decided obvious for jesus to be sacrifiesed for the gain of all believers.
We ought to follow his example, but not the sacrifies, because we are no Gods.
It is not because Jesus died for our sins once and for all, that we can continue to sin. He suffered for our sins.

So a muslim can go sinfull to heaven??

There is not so much differents between old and new testament, in both cases and unbeliever's live is meaningless and within the believers there ought to be forgivness, love and peace also in the old testament. The main differents is that in the old testament there was no civilisation, it was the law of the strongest, kill or being killed, that why God allowed his people to deal harsh with unbelievers/opponents.
Since Jesus, with the romain empaire there came more civilisation, law and order and no need to kill people unneccerally, because God hopes for them to receive understanding(also in old testament).

Jesus bodily form was killed, yes.
As far as I understood Muslims appealed allways on the profets and claimed to have them incommen with the christians and now you say you don't care who sayed something?
Why past tense?
the profecy was far before Christ, it depends from the context here, Isaiah starts this chapter with saying: "who has believed what we(prophets) have heared? To whom is the power of the Lord revealed?" So he speaks about what he heared in his profetic revelation (before).
Other profets profecy similar things about Jesus without mentioning his name.
But they said he would be born in Bethlehem and his second name will be  immanuel(God with us), cofirmed in new testament.

actualy, to proof our revelations to be true we are depending also from outside (religion) sources.
Maybe to proof our right out of own revelation is quite subjective.

shalom

Mohammed (peace be upon him) was never a miroculous worker, and never claimed to be one!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Emilee]

first of all I find it strange that you accept the testemony of one person (mohammed)above the testemony of about 45 persons (like prophets)(the bible books).

Muhammad was backed by miracles. And thats why we beleive him over any narration that contradict what he said.
And we don't beleive there were Prophets between Jesus and Mohammad, just a note.

One person is more influensial, then 45 persons

Stop making it look like it's his word against the word of other Prophets, Between Mohammad and Jesus there was more than 500 years.

Did you ever read the bible? I read a small portion of the Koran.

No I didn't and I won't. Quraan tells us some of the things in it(fabricated bible that is) and some of what was in the original.

The true ingil and tawrat are elevated to the sky, what is the use than and the point and where is it now?who had acces to the first one and what is left of it? What about scriptures older than 7000years? they don't count?

Crescent answered those questions in his text

The truth Injil has been elevated to the sky ( Allah willed that )

this means simply it doesn't exist on earth in it's original form(neither in written nor in memorized form). but since it's a heavenly book it exists in heavens (heaven=arabic "Sama^") namly the seventh heaven in the Preserved board)

You talk about orginal ingil and tawrat, while the christian leaders in the year 300 after Christ fixed the books(testemonies, manusripts) wich where trustworthy and authentic in a concilie. After that the text is NEVER changed(the scriptures are still in archieves and copies can be look in).

Actually thoes - I think- are the very people who deviated from Islam. There is a group in history that is said to be a christian group. but it's beleifs and actions(namly abulation and prayer) resembles the Islamic teachings almost to the letter

By the way the last chapter of the bible says that if anyone adds to this canon(scriptures) he will be cursed.

I beleive that this one survived the major fabrication and it possibly exsisted in the original injil in meaning.

It's only in about 500 after Christ that Mohammed came with the Koran that he claims to have received from God.
I have read that islam theologians agree that when mohammed received a 'revelation' he fell on the ground started shaking and behave like someone mad.

Whoo! careful you are crossing a red line. Beliteling our Prophet will not tolerated read the TAI Rules.
But to explain it He DID NOT act like a mad man. he used to shake, and cold sweet emerged from his skin. He asked for a cover so the shaking bit is out of cold NOT MADNESS. Bottom line: is Receiving thoes revelations from the Angel Jiibril was not a simple thing. and all Prophets go thru that.

Then he claimed that he received a revelation from God. This could be God...but can also be the adversery of God, not?

Miracles are a way of knowing that these are no fabrications. And if you mean by the term "Adversary of God" The Devil. Thats a huge difference between Islam and other releigons. See christianity tend to raise The devil to level of another god. by claiming that he can do things that Allah can also do. and that Allah is responsible for paradise, and he is responsible for hell. You see the devil is a cursed creature that Allah willed he live until the Judgment day. and then he dies a blasphemer and spends eternity in hell. He tries to lure people to deviat from the path of righteousness.

when God speaks thrue His profets about a throne or his hands, sitting or any other physical characteristics then is this (generally understood) spritually meant, to make himself understandeble to normal simpel man, offcourse it is impossible to describe his majesty, greatness, awsemnessand work in an other way

one by one.

The throne is a big Entity above the seventh heaven. And it's the biggest of Allah's creation it was NOT meant as a sitting place for Allah for as I said Earlier Allah needs non of His creation and He Existed before place without a Place and Exists now Without a place for change is impossible to happen to his self.

"Hands": in Arabic sometimes they use the term "Yad" for something other than the limb. So it depends upon the context, but it was never used in Quraan as the meaning of an actual limb or organ.

Sitting was never attributed to Allah in Quraan.

as for "spiritually meant" I don't get it, siting is siting what can it piritually mean and Allah is not a spirit and doesn't need a spirit or a soul.

As for describing Allah we describe him as he describes himeself nothing more nothing Less.

anastasis said:

What Jesus concerns: because the father's Holy Spirit lived in Him fully, he can be concerned as God.

You see thats imposible: First you call God a father which is absolutly impossible how can God be a father and a creator at the same time.
father means that a part of him split and formed another entity with common properties so now you have 2 Gods. which is imposible.
then you said "Holy spirit" In Islam that is the Angel Jibril. in Christianity it seems to be a part of what they call God, that if it "lived" inside something it's considered by them a "god"

then he said:

Who else can do wonders as he did: heal sick, raise the dead, written down by eyewitnesses and even opponents of Him.

Do you beleive Allah is not capable of doing all thoes things unless he does what U claimed did? Which is BTW intellectually impossible.

then He said:

How can you say that Jesus was a Muslim, it is obvious out of scriptures much older than the Koran that Jesus was a jew coming from a jewish father and mother from the family line of David, Saul, Salomon and for that from abraham.

Actually Jesus has no father, He was created without a father Just like Adam was created without parents. and creating Jesus without a father is not a hard task for Allah the almighty.

and David, Salmon and Abraham were all Muslims. AND PLEASE stop confiusing Ethnic groups and Releigeouse groups. This is becoming fraustrating I explained it in my first reply. When Mohammad peace be upon him asked the jews in Hijaz to follow him some of them did. What do you call these now?
Also a black man from Africa did and a Roman Man and Persian man. they were all Muslims.

the grandson of Abraham is called by an angel of God "Israel" this was the beginning of the history of God with his chosen people the israelites!

Yes, Ya^koub(Jacob) son of Is^hak(Isaac) son of Ibrahim. He was called Israel and he gave birth to 12 sons that there offspring became what is known now the Israelis.
And Allah chose them in the meaning that He sent them lots of prophets from there own kin. This doesn't meant they are all righteose or their race is superior in a way that they get to do what ever they wish to other races.

It is true that there is one God almighty, soverein and undescriveble,
but wich of the revelations is correct?

How can you say that after all that talk about Holy spirit and the claim "Jesus is a god"?
undescribeble? he is described that He is the Almighty and that he is One and that he Knows all that was and is and will be and the might have been..etc

Then he claimed:

Jesus was offered as a lam once and for all time because he was God

Thats illogical.
this looks more like thoes greek myths. you claimed that a god fathered a son and this son decided to offer himself as a sacrifice so others can do the same as he did in his life? and if it's a "once and for all" why do christians need to avoid sins.
and if we are all sinners that needs to be sacrified how come sometimes babys die before they become "aware"? what did they do?
Did they die because others commited sins? Are You claiming that Allah is Punishing them for something they didn't do?

The old and new testament can come from the same source if the emphasis or plan is adapted.
In the beginning of Jesus ministry he emphasis that he didn't came to change the law but to forfill it.

I'm talking about the "contradictions" the difference between what the so called old testement's wrath and call for war and what's called new testment's call for forgiveness and peace.

Isaiah one of the profets says in chapter 53: that the Lord "was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities, the punishment that brought us peace was upon him". who else could this be as Jesus?

Again you say now that God was tortured and killed. Thats impossible I don't care who -you claim- said it.

Interesting, you claimed he said that in the Past tense. Thats after the incident you claimed lead to the death of Jesus. So this man added to the "Bible"
isn't he cursed according to what you said before? Unless you beleive this bible is open for addition afterwards by selected people.

Edit: note if anybody sees that I made a mistake in my above text please inform me or correct it if a moderator. Just mark it w/red so I know.

if christians claim that Jesus was a son of God, then how do they explain the first man on the world, Adam ?? Wasnt he from their perspective, a "Son of God"
I just wanted to say that this is one of the logical explanations for those who dont believe.

[Emilee]

[

And you claim the bible is changed, but Mohammed beliefs the bible was authoritative: suras 3:87; 4:50; 5:48,72; 10:65,94 an other reason to read the bible!

Because Mohammed (peace be upon him) belives in what was reveiled, not CHANGED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Emilee]

I have only one thing to point out for all this :

"say Allah is one , the eternal. None is born of him is unborn, and there's none like unto Him."


Finished discusion               *PHEW* :-)

[Emilee]

OOps big sorry. I missed a word :oops:

Say -Allah is one, the eternal. He is unborn, and none is born of him. And there's nothing like unto Him.

For Anastasis:

read the WHOLE  Qura'n if you want the answers to ALL your questions, and then disscus your doubts and opinions.

[anastasis]

funny that advisor believes in islamic Israelites, I would expect God to name jakob something like Arab or so.

I wanted to finish the argumentation for not making it us unneccesaraly difficult.

Before my (probably) end argumentation I'll just answer Ema's remarks:
Bible says that everyone who comes to believe and to confess him becomes his son, so yes also Adam, me and many others.

After 367 after Chriist (with the 39th festal letter of Athanasius, a representative of the church, it is not possible for the bible to be changed. That was the bible that mohammed considered authorative. I see the contradiction: that what Mohammed confirms what he overwrites later.
By the way there isn't any indication that the bible would have been changed before that date.

advisor for me only one thing remains: what was the most authorative scripture?

I did a little bit resurch and I found:
That from before Mohammeds birth we have:
about 24000 manuscipts in Greek, Latin and other languages
about15000 translations in Latin, Syriac, coptic, Armenian,Gotic,Georgian,Ethiopic and Nubian.
(and 2135 lectionaries from the 6th century)

to change or refabricate al those is almost impossible and maybe you will laugh these away, but for me reasons enough to stick to the bible. What sense would it have to change these scriptures? It would'nt make live easier for the christians anyway.

If you say that later revelations are more authorative, than you have to say that a young man has more authority than an old man. By the way, after Mohammed there where others who claim to have received revelations of God: like Ahmadiyya, Joseph Smith and Sun-Yung -Moon ...

Anyway interesting talking to you, hope to see you guys in heaven someday, that God may open the eyes of those that need to be opened, I look out for your reply, God bless,

Koen(real name)

[Dr Aisha]

The way to learn about the Qur'an is through a thrustworthy muslim teacher.  Undoubtedly the Arabic remains unchanged and will until the day of judgement.  The problem is that many unlearned people have attempted to literally translate into other languages like english.  What happenes is that they make many mistakes and sometimes contradict the religion with the way they try to interpret it.


I would not recommend any of the so called english translations of the Quran. 


Allah is the Creator of everything.  Allah is not like anything.

Muhammad is God's final Messenger.

[Dr Aisha]

God has sent many Prophets to guide man out of ignorance and show them the proper way to worship and get to Paradise.  Muhammad was the last of those Prophets.  All prophets have miracles which they showed to the people in order to support their claims of prophethood.  Yes, it is true that the words of the most current prophet must be followed.  Prophet Muhammad came with new laws (but the exact same beliefs as Adam and all the other prophets) and these laws must be followed until the day of judgment.  A person can not pick previous laws to follow.

You are sadly mistaken.  Only those who believe in God and the Prophets correctly will be in Paradise.  So if we die with opposing beliefs it is impossible that we would dwell eternally in the same place.

It is known that the original bible does not exist anymore.  I didn't think that this was a point of debate.

[Dr Aisha]

Anastasis you seem to be missing the point.

I see you have mentioned some of the prophets like Jesus, Moses, and Abraham (may peace be upon them) but what about those that came before them?  I don't see where you mention Adam, Seth, Enoch, Lot, Jacob, and Jonah (may peace be upon them).


All of these great men were prophets of God.  They all taught the people to worship God only.  They all had the same belief.  They all received revealations from God and had miracles to support them.

All of these people were Muslim.

[Advisor]

funny that advisor believes in islamic Israelites, I would expect God to name jakob something like Arab or so

There are-apparently- lots of things you don't know about Islam. So feel free to Browse the site for more info if U like.

And Please Read the post by samsparky so you Understand that Islam is not a releigion started by Mohammad. It's The relegion of all Prophets.

and Yes Including the Israelits Prophets.

Edit: more read:

http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/English/IslamicConcepts.htm

http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/English/PDF/Islam.pdf

http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/English/PDF/Jesus.pdf