Author Topic: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?  (Read 4700 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Martin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 448
Re: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?
« Reply #10 on: Monday 19 December 2005, 12:53 »
I don't see a point in arguing with a person like anastasis.

The way i see it, it is very hard (almost impossible) for a christian to convince a muslim in what he believes in. However, yearly, hundreds of thousands of christians convert to islam. Even christians themselves are not convinced.

Reading about the Holy spirit, the father , the son ,etc.  is not interesting at all for us muslims. So please anastis, refrain from playing the same old symphony. If you are willing to learn about Islam, you are most welcome. If you want to preach about christianity, you may find a christian forum where you can try to send these messages. That's my personnal point of view.

And i don't understand why anastis used the hebrew word of " shalom". are you a jewish or a christian?
Ridiculously, i find it that some christians idolize the jews. And who tried to kill Jesus? aren't they the jews? It is forbidden to say this now in USA or Europe, i think. Just trying to keep the digusting hypocrisy.

The beauty of our book " the Qoran" (if u got a chance to read some of it) is that it just defines each person openly beautifully. No hiding behind the black curtains. No gentiles and masters.
« Last Edit: Monday 19 December 2005, 12:57 by Martin »

Offline CrescentOfTheMoon

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 665
  • Gender: Male
Re: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?
« Reply #11 on: Monday 19 December 2005, 14:44 »
Their wrong religions and their books are upside down ! missed up ! mixxed up ! , jewish contradict each other, not only 2 groups ! no, more than 2 groups contradict each other ! they don't know what they are talking about , they worship what they found suitable and comfortable to their minds ...even christians but not more than jewish ...
Anyway brother Martin you know that Allah is the one who guide and misguide ! So May allah guide the ignorant , Ameen ...

Offline Advisor

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 748
  • Gender: Male
  • Senior Moderator
Re: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?
« Reply #12 on: Monday 19 December 2005, 16:53 »
@anastasis : you didn't quote what I said. and you took some of my words and twisted them Just like The Injil was twisted.

Quote
who testefied of Mohammeds miracles?

Thousads Upon thousands. the Miracle of the moon spliting was seen thousands ok kilometers away
the miracle of the Quraan continues to this day.
the miracle of 1500 troops eating until they are full from one small pile of food reached us by Tawatur.
thats the lots of people told lots of people about it until this day.

Quote
Not only his diciples and eyewitnesses testified from Jesus miracles but also Romain adverseries who oppressed the christians wrote letters to eachother and describing to eachother Jesus work and miracles,

Jesus's Miracles were mentioned in Quraan what are you saying? No body denied them. Except the one that he changed water to wine. now thats not true.

Quote
You should read the new testament( ingil), because there is only that true one and the koran won't say a word of it's content.

Yes It does, it says what means
"and the Christians said: the messiah is the son of God"
and
"The christians say God is Jesus"

and lots more

Quote
It exists in heaven, than it is not a revelation and has no implication for us.

Well we beleive it existed sometime.

Quote
- Is there any indication outside the koran that there was something like islam before Mohammed   came???

Well you are not reading:
I said:
There is a group in history that is said to be a christian group. but it's beleifs and actions(namly abulation and prayer) resembles the Islamic teachings almost to the letter
this could be an example. maybe I'll dig up their name.

But if when Muhammed was sent there were almost no Muslims among humans in the whole world. How will the fact that there were muslims be narrated?
if they beleived this is what their ancestors beleived in how can they explain their deviation?

Quote
- What about scriptures older than 7000years? they don't count?
No

Quote
In my old testament (translated from the original manuscripts) I see no profet going through the same proces that Mohammed went through.

And you won't find it in Quraan also,(as far as I Know). It doesn't mean it's not true.

Quote
but sitting doesn't neccesseraly testify of weakness. A throne with no one to sit on is quite meaningless, it contributes to his splendour I assume.

Yes Absulutly. Sitting and standing moving and stopping are all things that the Created Do, and even these actions are creations of Allah.
Change is a sign of weakness because Allah is Perfect. if Change was possible this means that Allah was perfect and now he is not which is imposible
or it means Allah wasn't perfect and now He is which is imposible.

As for why the throne was created: To show the Greatness of Allah and what He Can Create as easily as anything else.

Quote
it means that he has the same relational additude towards us and Jesus as a father would have towards his children. (to love, care, give and dicipline)

Thats Absolutly Not true. I Understood what you wanted to say and I cut the road for you but you have some words you memorized and you wanted to type.
First this contradicts with what U said later about what you called the One who came in three forms.
second I know you beleive Allah even loves Hitler and pedophiles serial killers, But that absulutly not true and is not logical
The term father is used to describe 2 Identical entites. We are not gods. and God is not like us in any way.So it's use is Not valid. and What's wrong with the word "God"
only in greek and Roman myths they are applied to the same person.
 and apparently Christianity was a bit affected by Greek and Roman myths at some point.
Quote
As far as I understood Muslims appealed allways on the profets and claimed to have them incommen with the christians and now you say you don't care who sayed something?

I Don't care who Narrated that this certain Prophet said that Allah was Killed. Prophets Don't commit Blasphemy like this.

TBC



Offline Advisor

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 748
  • Gender: Male
  • Senior Moderator
Re: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?
« Reply #13 on: Tuesday 20 December 2005, 01:08 »
Quote
An angel and Holy spririt is very different. The ingil based upon Jesus words explanes God as one beeing, but three different expressions or functions. It stresses that they are one in work, purpose or goal. The Holy Spirit is there to reveal the word to us. That's why an unbeliever can't understand the bible if God would'nt want it to be, the Holy Spirit as Jesus origins from the father.

See this is the main problem. Use your common sense. You are Attributing Change To Allah. You made your God an "Idea" or as you said it an Expression.
God Is one in Everything. God Has no shape and it's impossible Intellectually that the creator of Jesus is Jesus or that the creator of anything resembles this thing for that matter.

Quote
that same ingil testifies that Holy Spirit made it possible for Maria to be pregnant without having an affaire with a man. Joseph was the father in the sense he raised Him.

Allah is the only one who can do this. Allah ordered Jibril to Blow the soul of Isa inside Maryam.
And You use the term father on anything don't you? a father is father period. Jesus is called Jesus son of Mariam. not son of Josef.

Quote
How can Abraham be a muslim if God makes his grandson an israelite or jew?

All Prophets including his grandson were Muslims.
The Followers of Isaak (Israel) became Astry after Moses Died.
They were Muslims During when Moses Led them out of Egypt.
their story is very complicated, But all of their Prophets were Muslims to name a few:
Isaak Yousef(Joseph) Ya^coub(Jacob) Moses Harun and lots more some we don't know their names.

Quote
Christians believe in God the father, God the son and God Holy Sprit.

We beleive In God the Almighty is One in the sense that He has no Partner. He is the creator and everything else is created
Impossiple that his self change or Divide or take a so Called son that you beleive is like Hindu avatars to their gods.

What you said in the last Paragraph is a claim we donot beleive. and this doesn't answer my question. The kid ate the apple is different from the kid will eat the apple.
some of the things that got lost in translation?

Quote
Maybe to proof our right out of own revelation is quite subjective.

Right, thats why I tried to bring rational proofs only. I rarly quoted Quraan or Hadith.

anastasis. I'm afraid this discution is what Martin said. Leading to no were and it's probably a waste of our time.
You are welcome to read about Islamic creed in our forum and we'll answer any question. but please stop trying to explain your convictions to us as you can see. we are convinced of what we beleive in. It's based on Rational proofs not playing with words.





Offline Sami Yusuf Islam

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 7767
  • Gender: Male
Re: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?
« Reply #14 on: Tuesday 20 December 2005, 03:15 »
mashaaAllah

Advisor, the surprising guy !

congratulations for those great long posts

Happiness keeps you Sweet,
Trials keep you Strong,
Sorrow keeps you Human,
Failure keeps you humble
and Success keeps you glowing,
but only Faith & Attitude Keep you going...

Offline anastasis

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?
« Reply #15 on: Wednesday 21 December 2005, 13:55 »
Thanks for argumentations advisor, not making non-founded statements like martin and cresent; opinions and not much ratio.
 
I wanted to answer your opinions, but since you don’t see the use of it and you are wasting time, I want to limit myself to the most important:

I don’t know where I twisted words or where I played with words.

The New Testament quotations in the Koran are drawn out of context and put in a new context.

So you want to say that a group of Christians testified about an Islam before Mohammed?

I find it very amazing that you just ignore dozens of manuscripts of 1000th years old!!(not changed, because they where written, hided, found thousands years later, assembled and translated).

Your and mine understanding is both based(influenced) upon Koran and bible, that’s why your common sense and ratio is different as mine.(like change is limiting, you can see it also like: not changing is limited)

Try to understand that the bible must be spiritually understood, depending from context.

You want to say that ‘father’ cannot have a relational meaning of loving, caring, disciplining?
It doesn’t contradict: the one how ‘is’ in three forms. The first is the fatherly form.

Not that you care, but the bible says: that God created us in His image.

That the bodily form of a part of God was killed is not blasphemy, there was a price to pay!

Jesus is not his own creator!

Father is father period?? One and one is not always two!

NOW MOST IMPORTANT:
Sorry but you don’t answer this answer properly:
How can Abraham be a muslim if God makes his grandson an Israelite or jew
And continuing: how can an Israelite(jewish) nation have muslim kings and prophets?

Are you suggesting that the israelites became through time, little by little muslim??

It is obvious that they where Israelites when they moved to egypte, when they left under Gods mighty hand Egypt, wandered through the desert, received the law and arrived in the promised land, Israel and after they where scattered. 
Even non-believers/atheists confirm this out of archaeological discoveries.

What is astry?

My passage about Isaiah speaking about the prophecy that he received earlier from God makes perfect sense!

We are also convinced, that doesn't matter, we can lurn.

Offline anastasis

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 15
Re: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?
« Reply #16 on: Thursday 22 December 2005, 02:29 »
I want to add to this:
I heard you and others talking about contradictions but even the koran says: Allah confirms or abrogates(like changes)what he pleases Sura13:39

And you claim the bible is changed, but Mohammed beliefs the bible was authoritative: suras 3:87; 4:50; 5:48,72; 10:65,94 an other reason to read the bible!

Offline samsparky

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 947
  • Gender: Female
  • God's Existence is different to our existence.
    • My msn page
Re: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?
« Reply #17 on: Thursday 22 December 2005, 02:35 »
Let's talk about the start of the humans.

Adam was the first human that God created - and God created a wife for him and they had children on this earth. And the population of humans grew.

God revealed to Adam rules to live by and all the children of Adam were taught how to believe in their creator.

This is called Islaam.

After Adam, God revealed a new set of rules to Shith (the son of Adam) hence Shith was the second Messenger of God.

God revealed different rules to Prophet Shith (Seth) but the belief in God remained the same.

All Messengers called to the same way of believing in God.

Before Prophet Jesus was sent and after - all the Messengers of God taught the same belief in God.

And that is the Islamic one - that God is the Creator Who does not resemble the creations. He existed without having non-existence before His Existence because He is not created - He is the Creator.

Everything other than God had a beginning and hence is a creation of God. All the places and spaces and directions.

Hence God exists without all these things - places, directions, etc.

That is the logic & that is the belief that all Messengers taught regardless of what anyone fabricates.
Imaam Ali said what means:

(Allaah Existed Eternally & there was no place & He now Exists as He Eternally Existed.) and (Where does not apply to the One Who created the where. How does not apply to the One Who created the how.)

Offline Advisor

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 748
  • Gender: Male
  • Senior Moderator
Re: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?
« Reply #18 on: Thursday 22 December 2005, 04:33 »
Well for now Just a Note.
Maybe Later I answer some of the other issues.
and I hope you read Sam's post. He knows what he is talking about. ;)

Quote
NOW MOST IMPORTANT:
Sorry but you don’t answer this answer properly:
How can Abraham be a muslim if God makes his grandson an Israelite or jew
And continuing: how can an Israelite(jewish) nation have muslim kings and prophets?

Again you are confusing racial and releigeous issues.

the Term Israelits or in arabic banu Israel (the offspring of Israel) is not a releigion. It's an Ethnic group.
so Yes Ibrahim's grandson was the father of Israelits and their relegion was Islam.
now the offspring of Isaak were called Israelits. But some of them were Muslims and others were not.
after a while they became mostly nonmuslims by leaving the path of Islam.

why They were called Jews.

I don't know what the English/Hebrew term Jew means. But in Arabic they are called "Yahood" bacause most of them strayed from the path of righteosness in the incident where Moses left them to go to the Tor mountain to hear the speach of Allah(speach of Allah is not a language nor Sound nor letters. its an Attribute)
when Moses came back he made them return to Islam again. the term yahood means the ones who  returned. the name stayed with them to this day.

each time they stray from the path of Islam. A Prophet is sent to them. Last one before Muhammad was Jesus.
And Muhammad is sent to them as He peace be Upon him was sent to all people not Just Arabs. which includes them.


I hope you understand this now. because I can't explaine it further than that.
I explained it like I would to an 8 year old. maybe 9 :)

Quote
Father is father period?? One and one is not always two!

Is this the basis of the christian's faith?!!


« Last Edit: Friday 23 December 2005, 06:57 by Advisor »

Offline Emilee

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 1766
  • Gender: Female
  • RSPCA Saving our heart animals~www.rspca.org.au
Re: is Allah the same God as the christian (jewish)God?
« Reply #19 on: Saturday 24 December 2005, 00:47 »
some people like Anastasis arent meant to believe, because Allah places on their hearts a burden, but they can bear it.
Let me help you here on TAI.