Topic: HADITH TSAQALAIN- Qur'an and Ahlul Bait VS Qur'an and Sunnah

[adi Irama]

Assalamualaikum Wr Wb
Brothers in Iman and Islam,


I always wonder why have our ulamas ignore the importance of Hadith Tsaqalain
which is narrated in our Shahih,Sunans and Musnads (with the exception of shahih
Bukhari).The Hadith on adhering to the Qur'an and As Sunnah on the other
hand is not even reported in any of the shahihs and musnads!WHY?

Based on a parallel (Mutawatir) tradition upon whose authenticity all
Muslims agree, the Messenger of Allah (AS) informed his followers in several occasions that he would leave them two precious/weighty things and that if Muslims adhere to both of them, they will never go astray after him. They are the Book of Allah (Quran) and the Members of the House of the Prophet (Ahlul-Bayt), peace be upon them all.

It is narrated in Sahih Muslim as well as many other sources that:
Someday (after his last pilgrimage) the Messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) stood to give us a speech beside a pond which is known as Khum (Ghadir Khum) which is located between Mecca and Medina. Then he praised Allah and reminded Him, and then said: "O' people! Behold! It seems the time approached when I shall be called away (by Allah) and I shall answer that call. Behold! I am leaving for you two precious things. First of them is the book of Allah in which there is light and guidance... The other one is my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt. I remind you in the name of Allah about my Ahlul-Bayt.
(three times)."
Sunni Reference:

Sahih Muslim, Chapter of the virtues of the companions, section of the
virtues of Ali, 1980 Edition Pub. in Saudi Arabia, Arabic version, v4,
p1873, Tradition #36.
And many others such as Sahih al-Tirmidhi, Musnad Ahmad (see below).
For the English version of Sahih Muslim, see Chapter CMXCVI, v4, p1286,
Tradition #5920


As we can see in the above tradition in Sahih Muslim, not only Ahlul-Bayt
has been put beside the Quran, but also it has been mentioned three times by
the Prophet (PBUH&HF).

Despite the fact that the author of Sahih Muslim and many other Sunni
traditionists have recorded the above tradition in their authentic books, it
is regrettable that the majority of us are unaware of its existence at
the best, or deny it at the worst. Their counter argument is that the most
reliable tradition in this regard is the one recorded by al-Hakim in his
al-Mustadrak, on the authority of Abu Huraira, attributing to the Messenger of Allah saying: "I leave amongst you two things that if you follow or act upon, you will not go astray after me: The Book of God and my Sunnah
(traditions)."

There is no doubt that ALL Muslims are required to follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). However, the question remains that which Sunnah is genuine and which one is invented later and was falsely attributed to the Prophet.

On tracing the source of this report of Abu Huraira which states "Quran and Sunnah," we found out that it has NOT been recorded in any of the six authentic Sunni collections of the traditions (Sihah Sittah). Not only that, but also al-Bukhari, al-Nisa'i, and al-Dhahabi and many others rated this report (Quran and Sunnah) as weak because of its weak Isnad. It should be noted that although the book of al-Hakim is an important Sunni collection of traditions, yet it is ranked inferior to the six major Sunni books. This is while Sahih Muslim is in the second rank among the six Sunni collections of traditions.

al-Tirmidhi reported that the "Quran and Ahlul-Bayt" version of the
tradition is traced to 30+ companions. Ibn Hajar al-Haythami reported that he knows of 20+ companions witnessed that also. This is while the "Quran and Sunnah" version reported by al-Hakim has only one source! Thus we must conclude that the "Quran and Ahlul-Bayt" version is much more reliable. Moreover al-Hakim has also mentioned the "Quran and Ahlul-Bayt" version in his book (al-Mustadrak) through several chain of authorities and confirmed that the "Quran and Ahlul-Bayt" version of the tradition is authentic based on the criteria of al-Bukhari and Muslim.

Moreover, the word "Sunnah" by itself does not serve the purpose of
knowledge. All Muslims irrespective to their persuasions claim that they
follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH&HF). The differences among Muslims come from the transmitted Prophetic traditions through different avenues. Such traditions serve as explanatory means of the Holy Quran upon whose authenticity all Muslims agree. Thus divergence in the transmitted traditions, which in turn has led to differing interpretation of Quran and the prophetic Sunnah, has created numerous versions of Sunnah. All Muslims, as a result, splintered into different schools, groups, offshoots, which is believed to add up to seventy three groups. All of them are obeying their own version of Sunnah which they claim to be the true one. Which of these groups follow the true Sunnah of the Prophet? Which one (out of 73 groups) will be the prosperous one, and will survive? Other than the tradition of Sahih Muslim mentioned above, the following authentic traditions provide a unique detailed answer for this question:

The messenger of Allah (PBUH&HF) said: "I am leaving for you two precious and weighty Symbols that if you adhere to BOTH of them you shall not go astray after me. They are, the Book of Allah, and my progeny, that is my Ahlul-Bayt. The Merciful has informed me that These two shall not separate from each other till they come to me by the Pool (of Paradise)."
Sunni references:

Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v5, pp 662-663,328, report of 30+ companions, with
reference to several chains of transmitters.
al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, Chapter of "Understanding (the virtues) of
Companions, v3, pp 109,110,148,533 who wrote this tradition is authentic
(Sahih) based on the criteria of the two Shaikhs (al-Bukhari and Muslim).
Sunan, by Daarami, v2, p432
Musnad, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v3, pp 14,17,26,59, v4, pp 366,370-372, v5, pp
182,189,350,366,419
Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p585, Tradition #990
al-Khasa'is, by al-Nisa'i, pp 21,30
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p230
al-Kabir, by al-Tabarani, v3, pp 62-63,137
Kanz al-Ummal, by al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Chapter al-Iti'sam bi Habl Allah, v1,
p44.
Tafsir Ibn Kathir (complete version), v4, p113, under commentary of verse
42:23 of Quran (four traditions)
al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, by Ibn Sa'd, v2, p194, Pub. by Dar Isadder, Lebanon.
al-Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, v1, p353, and also in v2
Majma' al-Zawa'id, al-Haythami, v9, p163
al-Fateh al-Kabir, al-Binhani, v1, p451
Usdul Ghabah fi Ma'rifat al-Sahaba, Ibn al-Athir, v2, p12
Jami' al-Usul, Ibn al-Athir, v1, p187
History of Ibn Asakir, v5, p436
al-Taj al-Jami' Lil Usul, v3, p308
al-Durr al-Manthoor, al-Hafidh al-Suyuti, v2, p60
Yanabi al-Mawaddah, al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, pp 38,183
Abaqat al-Anwar, v1, p16
... and many more ...


Of course, any Muslim should follow the Sunnah of the Prophet (PBUH&HF), and as such, we, Muslims should submit to the genuine (practice) Sunnah of the Holy Prophet of Islam (PBUH&HF) and consider it to be the only path of salvation. But the above tradition gives evidence to the fact that any so-called Sunnah (practice) which contradicts Ahlul-Bayt is NOT a genuine Sunnah and has been innovated later on by some pay-rolled individuals in support the tyrants. That's why the Prophet had emphasized so much on Ahlul-Bayt in loving them and following them since they carry his genuine Sunnah. The Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet who are raised in his house know more than anybody else about the Sunnah of the Prophet and what it entails, for as the proverb goes: "The people of Mecca know its paths better than anyone else."

For the sake of argument, if we accept that the two versions of the
tradition ("Quran and Ahlul-Bayt" vs. "Quran and Sunnah") are both
authentic, then one must submit to the interpretation that the word "my
Sunnah" given by al-Hakim means the Sunnah which is derived through Ahlul- Bayt and not any other source, as it is evident from the Ahlul-Bayt version given by both Mustadrak al-Hakim and Sahih Muslim.

It is inreresting to see, al-Hakim has many other traditions about necessity of following Ahlul-Bayt, among which is the following tradition. This tradition is also narrated by many other Sunni scholars and is known as the "Tradition of the Ship" in which the Prophet (PBUH&HF) stated:

"Behold! My Ahlul-Bayt are like the Ark of Noah. Whoever embarked in it was SAVED, and whoever turned away from it was PERISHED."


Sunni references:

al-Mustadrak, by al-Hakim, v2, p343, v3, pp 150-151 on the authority of Abu
Dhar. al-Hakim said this tradition is authentic (Sahih).
Fadha'il al-Sahaba, by Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v2, p786
Tafsir al-Kabir, by Fakhr al-Razi, under the commentary of verse 42:23, Part
27, p167
al-Bazzar, on the authority of Ibn Abbas and Ibn Zubair with the wording
"drowned" instead of "perished".
al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p234 under
Verse 8:33. Also in section 2, p282. He said this Hadith has been
transmitted via numerous authorities.
Tarikh al-Khulafaa and Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti
al-Kabir, by al-Tabarani, v3, pp 37,38
al-Saghir, by al-Tabarani, v2, p22
Hilyatul Awliyaa, by Abu Nu'aym, v4, p306
al-Kuna wal Asmaa, by al-Dulabi, v1, p76
Yanabi al-Mawaddah, by al-Qundoozi al-Hanafi, pp 30,370
Is'af al-Raghibeen, by al-Saban

With Salams,
Brother Adi Irama





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[Advisor]

@ Adi Rama

I carefully read your post And I'd really like to comment on few things.

1. Whenever the Prophet says the word sunnah He means: Al-Shari^a. or the Cread and the laws. there were many times the Prophet said this word. Not only the Hadith of Al Hakem you mentioned.

2. We Admit the virtues of Ahlulbeit and consider them a blessing to this day.
But this sentence you wrote:

The Ahlul-Bayt of the Prophet who are raised in his house know more than anybody else about the Sunnah of the Prophet and what it entails, for as the proverb goes: "The people of Mecca know its paths better than anyone else."

True. But this makes it look like the Prophet didn't go out much and wasn't involved in the Muslim community. Which is false because most of his days Salla Ellahu Allayhi wa sallam was in the Mosque, meeting with people answering their questions. And keeping eye on the Practices of Muslims.
Besides this Applies not only on Ali, Fatima, El-Hassan and El Hussain but also to the wives (Umm salamah, Jouayriyya, Aisha, And so on) and to the Sevants (Annas in Particular) and to Abou Horraira who lived in the mosque and had no job and he followed the prophet all day for 3 or so years.

Having said that non of the above mentioned had the rank or knowledge of Ali. Ali is the most knowledgeable of the Sahabah and 4th in rank after Abou Baker, Omar and Othman.

3. Although I "admit" I heard most of the Hadiths about Ahlulbeit you mentioned. It's untrue that the knowledge of Islam passed thru them only and untrue that they are uncapable of making mistakes, and it's very untrue that all the ones who disagreed with them they are on payroll from tyrants.

There are lots of Hadith about Sahabah who are not from this Honourble line that they are to be asked about Islamic Knowledge.

4. Back to the beginig of your topic:

Based on a parallel (Mutawatir) tradition upon whose authenticity all
Muslims agree, the Messenger of Allah (AS) informed his followers in several occasions that he would leave them two precious/weighty things and that if Muslims adhere to both of them, they will never go astray after him. They are the Book of Allah (Quran) and the Members of the House of the Prophet (Ahlul-Bayt), peace be upon them all.

This text where is it from?
And you say it's motwatar can you provide me with at least 9 ways of authentic narration. or tell me which Hafeth says it's motawatar? I'm not saying it's false. I'm asking for proof

Again you said:

Despite the fact that the author of Sahih Muslim and many other Sunni
traditionists have recorded the above tradition in their authentic books, it
is regrettable that the majority of us are unaware of its existence at
the best, or deny it at the worst. Their counter argument is that the most
reliable tradition in this regard is the one recorded by al-Hakim in his
al-Mustadrak, on the authority of Abu Huraira, attributing to the Messenger of Allah saying: "I leave amongst you two things that if you follow or act upon, you will not go astray after me: The Book of God and my Sunnah
(traditions)."

I know there are more than this. I'll get references on this issue. But I remind you with the explaination of the term sunnah in the begining of this post.

For the sake of argument, if we accept that the two versions of the
tradition ("Quran and Ahlul-Bayt" vs. "Quran and Sunnah") are both
authentic, then one must submit to the interpretation that the word "my
Sunnah" given by al-Hakim means the Sunnah which is derived through Ahlul- Bayt and not any other source, as it is evident from the Ahlul-Bayt version given by both Mustadrak al-Hakim and Sahih Muslim.

öIt's definetly true that we should follow the Quraan and Sunnah(Sunnah here: the instructions of the Prophet) and this applies to Ahlulbeit. So there is no difference between following the Instructions of the Prophet and folowing Ahlulbeit since they too follow the instructions of the Prophet.

Actually this argument for the above reason is meaningless why don't we cut to the point. Did any of Ahlussunnah scholars say something against the beleifs of Ahlulbeit? (again authentic Hadiths only) Did anyone understand the above Hadith that Ahlulbeit have an "exclusive" seal of Approval to be Scholars, and any other scholar no matter how much he learns is unacceptable? Absolutly not.

[adi Irama]

Salam,
Dear brother,

Thanks for responding.But for the meantime does it not occur strange that the hadith" I left you the Qur;an and Sunnah" was not recorded by Imam Bukhari and Imam Muslim,nay not even by Nasai and Dawud and Tirmizi! Now,the other hadith which speaks on "Al-Qur'an and Ahlul Bait" are numerous and find its way in our Shahihs,Sunans and Musnads.Which between the two hadith is more authentic and reaches the degree of Mutawatir? Oh,what is your understanding of Mutawatir brother?

With salams,
Adi Irama

[Advisor]

Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the Worlds.
I Humbly ask Allah to raise the rank of Prophet Mohammad.


My Understanding of motawater is the understanding of All the Scholars of Hadith in Islam a Motawater is a Hadith that has been Narrated by 9 or more different routs (routs that are parallel and do not cross each other) to the Prophet. the routs must be authentic and they strengthen each other according to how strong each one is. Less than 9 routs might be considered motawater if some of the routs are very strong.

 If a Hafeth is Judged as a motawater by a Hafeth then the Hadith is.

If the Narration of An Nasai Abou Dawood and Attirmithi intersect or if one of the narrators is weak the Hadith is no more motawater.
Also if the Hadith Was narrated by lots of Narrators with differences that change the meaning the Hadith is not Motawater.

I'll quote myself once again:

Code: [Select]


It's definetly true that we should follow the Quraan and Sunnah(Sunnah here: the instructions of the Prophet) and this applies to Ahlulbeit. So there is no difference between following the Instructions of the Prophet and folowing Ahlulbeit since they too follow the instructions of the Prophet.

And

Did anyone understand the above Hadith that Ahlulbeit have an "exclusive" seal of Approval to be Scholars, and any other scholar no matter how much he learns is unacceptable? Absolutly not.

[/i]

[adi Irama]

Salam.
Just for now,
1)Is Imam Ali the most knowledgeble amongst the Companions of the Prophet(s.a.w.w)?

2)How do you rate the Hadith"Al-Qur'an and Ahlul Bait"?Is it Shahih,Hassan,Mutawatir or dhaif?

3)What is the hadith implying?What is meant that we will not go astray if we adhere to the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bait? Who are the Ahlul Bait?
Please quote references from Qur'an and Dunni source only lest I be accused of a Shia!

4)Are the Companions parallel in status and knowledge compared to the Ahlul Bait?

5)Who are the "Shias of Ali" during the lifetime of the Prophet(s.a.w.w).And why are they identified as such? So far I have not heard of any hadith where the Prophet(s.a.w.w) says anything about "the Shias of Abu Bakr,Umar and Uthman"(May Allah be please with them).Again why  only the ephitet "IMAM" appliy to Ali and not the other 3 Caliphs?

Wassalam,
Adi Irama

[Advisor]

Salam.
Just for now,
1)Is Imam Ali the most knowledgeble amongst the Companions of the Prophet(s.a.w.w)?

Yes defenatly.

The Prophet said to his daughter Fatima what means: "You'll marry the most knowlegeable of my nation"

Omar bin Al Khattab said what means: "we seek the refuge of Allah from a delimah Abou El Hassan can't take care of"

Because Sahabah respected each other and knew each other's rank.

2)How do you rate the Hadith"Al-Qur'an and Ahlul Bait"?Is it Shahih,Hassan,Mutawatir or dhaif?

Rating of Hadiths is the job of the hafeth. I'm defenatly not a Hafeth. But I promise I will ask someone if he knows any Hafeth who rated this Hadith and I'll bring the strongest rate if there are many.

3)What is the hadith implying?What is meant that we will not go astray if we adhere to the Qur'an and the Ahlul Bait? Who are the Ahlul Bait?
Please quote references from Qur'an and Dunni source only lest I be accused of a Shia!

These question are to be asked to Scholar I'm barely a student. But I'm certain that it doesn't mean that scholars of  Ahlulbeit are the only scholars acceptable in Islam because the prophet said for example that Mou'ath bnu Jabale is the most knowledgabe of this nation in the matters of Hallal and Haram.

4)Are the Companions parallel in status and knowledge compared to the Ahlul Bait?

The Companion's status are as following.
the best is Abou baker. Then Omar. Then othman. then Ali Ali. (some  scholars said then Othman & Ali)
then the rest of the ten Moubasharine bil Jannah. thats:
Tal7a,AL Zubair, Abou Ubaidah, Abdul Rahman Binu Aouf, Saad Bnu Abi Wakkas, Saeed Bin Zaid.
No Muslim is before this status Hadith from Sunnah books About the Manaqeb of these are so many. So Ahlussunnah Scholars said that these are the top in status.

As for knowledge we Already know that Ali is the most knowledgeable.

Who are the "Shias of Ali" during the lifetime of the Prophet(s.a.w.w).And why are they identified as such?

They probably didn't exist in that context. The prophet said what he said because he knew some how that there will be a fitnah and that Ali will be the leader of  the righteouse group

So far I have not heard of any hadith where the Prophet(s.a.w.w) says anything about "the Shias of Abu Bakr,Umar and Uthman"(May Allah be please with them).Again why only the ephitet "IMAM" appliy to Ali and not the other 3 Caliphs?

Like I said before and may I remind you again ( I think I'll do that every post) of the Hadith that indicates and Identifies the winning group of 73. the prophet when asked said: What me and my companions are on not what me and Ali only are on or me and Ahlulbeit are on. The term sahabah includes Ali and his sons May Allah be pleased with all of them

Anything else?

[adi Irama]

Salam,
Dear Advisor,

Thanks for your response.Like you I also believe that Imam Ali is the MOST KNOWLEDGEABLE amongst the Sahabas.

To authenticate a hadith one should approach a Muhadith and not a Hafidz! Or I may be wrong.Like you I am not a scholar, only a layman.I rely on the findings of great ulamas irrespective whether they are Ahlus Sunnah,Wahabis or Shias.At times I agree with their arguments and at other times I reject.Nevertheless admitting one limitation I always tell myself who knows those arguments and views which I reject may be the truth.Allah knows best.Alhamdulillah,I have at my disposal authoratative books belonging to the Ahlus Sunnah and Shia.Not only that I sit in their majalis and understand their standpoints direct from the sources.No second hand information.

Comung back to our discussion did Rasulullah(s.a.w.w)knew that Talha,Zubair,Aisyah and Muawiyyah will revolt against Imam Ali?Did he knew that Imam Hussein will be slaughtered in Karbala by Yazid and his thousabd armies? Were tha MAJORITY with Imam Ali and Imam Hussein?You must have read the book FITNATUL KUBRA by Taha Hussein.

You must have known from the many hadiths (Sunni references) that no one is more knowledgeable and worthy of being followed than the Ahlul Bait.Not only that you must have come across hadiths from the shahihs which shows that there are SAHABAS who do innovation and thus send to hell! I believe only a handful of us,Ahlus Sunnah know about this.Your comment please.

With salam,
Adi Irama

[Advisor]

To authenticate a hadith one should approach a Muhadith and not a Hafidz! Or I may be wrong.

You are. A Mouhaddith memorizes more than 25,000 Hadith. A Hafith memorizes Hundreds of thousands(with the Narrators of course)so a Hafeth is Higher than a Mouhaddeth. A Hafeth knows most of the Narrators and their status.

I rely on the findings of great ulamas irrespective whether they are Ahlus Sunnah,Wahabis or Shias

Only Ahlussunnah Scholars are both trustworthy and has a root of long Isnad to the Sahabah

Comung back to our discussion did Rasulullah(s.a.w.w)knew that Talha,Zubair,Aisyah and Muawiyyah will revolt against Imam Ali?

Yes According to some Hadiths Especially Regarding Talha and Al-Zubaier.
Of course the 3 show showed remourse and tawbah before they died.

[adi Irama]

Salam.
Dear Advisor,

Thanks for the correction.

As for your saying that only Ahlus Sunnah are trusworthy you contradict Imam Bukhari himself! Do you know that in his shahih, Imam Bukhari quoted numerous hadiths from those who are known to be Shiites! How could you do not know this? Thus ignorance kept on increasing and falsehood continued to spread.Let's put more effort in the service of Islam to explain fact that are clouded by the fact of ignorance.

Now,you said that Talha,Zubair and Ayesha were remorseful and regretted their aggression against Imam Ali before they passed away.Any proof?

Being a Sunni Muslim you must have known the consequences of revolting against a rightful Caliph.Perhaps the following quotations from Shahih Muslim will help.
It is reported that the Holy Prophet(s.a.w.w) said:

"WHOEVER(pls taake note)takes a rebellious stand against a righteous Imam,and parts with the united community.then he dies,he would DIE A PRE-ISLAMIC DEATH.And whoever fights blindly under a banner unknown to be the banner of truth,siding with wrong party selfishly,then is killed,he dies a pre-Islamic death."   (MUSLIM,his Shahih,part 12)

Have Talha,Zubair and Ayesha forgotten that the Messenger said about Ali:"GOD LOVES whoever loves him and is HOSTILE to whoever is hostile to him"  (SUNAN IBNU MAJAH part 1 hadith no 145)

                       and

"I am at PEACE with whoever you are at peace ,and I am at WAR wi th whomever  you are at war with" (Ibnu Al-Athir in his Al-Kamil part 2)

Who were with Talha,Zubair and Ayesha in their war with Ali? Certainly not the "SHIA OF ALI" which we were discussing about- is the picture clearer now?

With Salam,
Adi Irama

[Advisor]

Like I said before. The term Shia was not a reference to Rafedhee Deviants until Recently Shia Narrators are trustworthy, Especially if the Subject is not concerning what happened between Sahabah.

Do you find any Rafidah in Bukhari?
Who are the Shia Narrators in Bukhari? Which Hafeth said this and this are Shia?

"WHOEVER(pls taake note)takes a rebellious stand against a righteous Imam,and parts with the united community.then he dies,he would DIE A PRE-ISLAMIC DEATH.And whoever fights blindly under a banner unknown to be the banner of truth,siding with wrong party selfishly,then is killed,he dies a pre-Islamic death."

This Doesn't make them Kuffar (Non Muslims)!

The Quraan says What means: If Two groups of beleivers fight, Fight the Unrightful one" the unrightful one is the one which decided to act against the Khalifah Militarilly. The Quraan Called both beleivers.



Talha Heard this Hadith (About Ali) but he forgot it, Zubair was told by the Prophet that he will fight Ali and he will be unjustfull. He also forgot it.

Who were with Talha,Zubair and Ayesha in their war with Ali? Certainly not the "SHIA OF ALI" which we were discussing about- is the picture clearer now?

No The so called Shia of Ali were Obviously with Ali. Some of the people with him Later turned into Khawarej and one of thoes killed him so no not All of them I guess.

Tommorow I'll get references of How the 3 showed remourse and tawbah