Topic: The speech of Allah

[pumarage]

salam

Servant of Islam said:

So on what should one base pumarage??

The prophet muhammad peace be upon him said "taraktu feekom ma in tamassaktum bihi lan tadillou ba3diya abada. Kitab Allah wa sunnati" (i've left for you two things that if you hold firm to, you'll never be misguided after me ever. The book of Allah, and my Sunnah)

servant of islam said:

We do take our rules to follow from Qur'an and hadeeth, right?

right

Servant of Islam said

Don't you believ for example that the Qur'an don't contradict haddeth for example?? Even if you didn't know a hadeeth saying that?

there is a qur'an saying this.. not simply a hadith. Allah said in the Qur'an "wama kana limu'minin wala mu'minatin itha qadallahu warasooluhu amran an yakoona lahumulkheeratu min amrihim waman ya3sillaha warasoolahu faqad dalla dalalan mubeena" (It is not for a believer man or women when Allah and His Messenger have decreed a matter that they should have any option in their decision. An dwhomever disobeys Allah and His messenger, he has indeed strayed in a plain error)
The decree of Allah is associated with the Decree of the prohpet peace be upon him. They are linked and related. as Allah said 'Wama Yantiqi 3anil hawa. In Huwa illa wa7yun yoo7a" meaning (the prophet doesn't speak of his own desire or self, but what he says is a revelation that is revealed to him). This is more than enough prove from teh qur'an that the word of Allah and his prophet can't contradict. because both are revelation.

S.of islam said:

Without these rules, one would be lost, what will be the bases for him then?

the basis is what i mentioned.

servant of Islam said:

The scholars talked about these rules and showed their importnace in many different ways... Like the scholars of haddeth, they said that you can know if a hadeeth was not saheeh if it contradicted Qur'an and there is no way to make ta'weel and give it a meaning that does not contrdict Qur'an, and if the hadeeth contradicted the logic of mind you know then too that it's not right.....

i think this all goes back to the understand of the person to the qur'an and the sunnah. This is why opinion has no place there and i'ts only the saying of the prophet that is to be taken in MOST important consideration. the saying of a prophet isn't to be countered by a saying of a sahabi or a tabi'i. It could be explained by a saying of a sahabi, but not countered. and the mind is no judge upon the nusoos! the mind of the human isn't perfect, it's rather INCOMPLETE for it to be a judge upon a revelation from Allah where we agreed that Sunnah is a wahy. mind isn't a judge but the sanad of the hadith and the narrators of the hadith are to prove if it's authentic or not. that's teh believe i hold.

Servant of islam said:

Scholars of Islam did have many things that they disagreed over, but they didn't disagree about the essentials of belief.

isn't the essencials of beleif clear from teh qur'an and the sunnah? i mean, if i put the saying of the ulama' out of the way and ignore it.. and i just look at the qur'an and the authentic hadith and the saying of teh 4 first khalifas that came after the prohpet. Wouldn't that be enough for me to understand the basic of islam that would save me from Hellfire?

Servant of islam said:

In arabic language, this ayah, negate any resemblance between Allah and His creations.

Yes.. it's saying that nothing is equal to Allah the All Mighty and nothing resembles Him. true.

Servent of Islam said:

Would you take the explination of this verse from people who followed a man who said that this ayah negate resemblance and prooved it in the same time?? Is that logic??
Ibn Taymia said that the verse: ?? is the most clear ayah in negating the resemblance of Allah, but it's not clear of resemblance too! How can anyone accept this?! He is clearly claiming that there is a contradiction, which is not acceptable at all!

it is logic. i told u people before that i dont' learn the creed of another group from a group that makes takfeer to taht group. my creed regarding asmaa' and sifat that you people approved of (EVE and Abdullah and i think u also) is a creed that i learned from teh 'salafis' word to word when i was with them. Isn't this an irony? as for Sheikh Ibn Taymia.. i don't know nothing about him yet. When i go and talk to 'salafis', wahhabies or ikhwan.. i refuse quotes for scholars. Exactely as i requested from u people here to talk to me through qur'an and sunnah mainly. not scholars talk and i explained myself regarding this before. So as to what u said about ibn Taymia... i have no clue. i was going to buy his huge volume Majmoo' al fatawa last week... but when i went to get it... i found out that the amount of money i saved wasnt' enough to get it. That's the will of God. and i'm not here to talk or defend or even discuss ibn Taymia insha'Allah. I'll know about him later on insha'Allah if God wells from his own books. not from what is said about him. i think this is the fair way. So putting wahhabies and ikhwan and salafis aside... there are nusoos that i read which the obvious meaning of it clearly affirms the Yadd or Saaq to Allah or even the Nuzool. to be honest... the ta'weel i see u people doing is rather what i call a tahreef.. not a ta'weel. Beacuse i see a hadith saying something and then the ta'weel comes to say something totoally totally out of the way. And i question myself... and i question u... and everyone. If the word didn't mean what it meant in the hadith, why the same word was the one always repeated in different hadiths, narrations or verses rather than another choice of word to clarify things more 'IF' the apparent and the obvious clear word wasn't teh one meant? If i'm not mistaken, Al Istiwa' for example was mentioned 7 times in different places in teh qur'an. I'm not sure about teh 7.. it could be even more. So in all those places.. it's the exact same word used 'ISTAWA'... but the ta'weel came to be Istawla 'as i was taught from people following the AICP'. as to mean Qahara etc. So the same word is repeated several times but it meant something different instead and the apparent meaning that the word chosen implies could lead to kufr?? So isn't the right way of dealing with all these attributes to affirm them as they came to Allah without making any modification for them hence Allah attributed and described Himself with those exact word. so who are we to change it. Yes i know, in the case of some verses... you'll clearly see the meaning of it automatically if one has any knowledge or logic in the arabic language. As in teh saying of Allah 'Tajree bi 2a3yunina' as in Allah's care and protection. or what Allah said to Musa and Haroon may Allah be pleased with them 'Innani ma3akuma asma3u wa 2ara' or 'Kullu shay2in haalikon Allah wajhah'. looking at the context of the verse and where it came.. u can understand that it didn't mean what it apparantly meant. but in some cases. the ta'weel just doesn't seem right. wallahu a3lam. what am i trying to say you may be thinking? i didn't jump out of what we're talking about. What i'm trying to say is that the verse

??

seems to be sometimes used to deny ahadeeth or change its meanings and the meaning of verses just that it won't contradict a held belief.

Allah said in teh qur'an

? ?? ? ?? ? ?? ?? ? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ? ? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ?

You know Imam ar-Rifa^y right?

He said:
?? ? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ?? ? ??
And this is following the saying of Allah:
? ? ?? ? ?? ??

Thi shows that we are not supposed to follow the apparent meanings of ayyat mutashabiha....And this is the right thing to be done.

I rather go with the hadith of the prophet peace be upon him when he read that verse as it was narrated by Aisha may Allah be pleased with her she said: The prohpet peace be upon him said what means 'if you see those who follow 'the mutashabih' fa7tahroohum'.

Ibn Al Aaas narrated that the prohpet peace be upon him said 'innal qur'an lam yanzil liyukhathiba ba3duhu ba3dan. fama 3araftum mnihu fa3malo bih, wama tashabha minhu fa'aaminu bih" meaning the qur'an wasn't revealed so that it will contradict itself. So whatever you understand from it, then apply it and do it. and whatever you failed to understand 'tashabaha alaykum' from it then BELIEVE in it"
sister.. if you go to the tafseer of the qur'an like Al qurtubi, ibn katheer, Al Tabari, etc.. you'll see sooooooo much talk about this verse. Tooo much. sahaba were quoted. ahadeeth were narrated and said about this... having the saying of the prophet and the sahaba is enough for me and more reliable and authentic.

Ta'weel is the way that scholars followed to explain Qur'an correctly, and there are many prooves on that

what i know is that the prohpet and the majority of the companions didn't do it. and that is enough for me.

To sum all this up, Pumerage’s quote is not çaHîH and if it was, it would not mean in Arabic that Allâh speaks with a voice or sounds

el hamdulillah.. i'm tired... and i dont' know what to say to u anymore. if a hadith in bukhari isn't saheeh! and if sout doesn't mean sound anymore..........?


alurdumaaniyy said:

If Pumerage thinks that the Prophet (çalla-llâhu ^alayhi wasallam) says one thing and alHâfiZ al^Asqalâniyy another and that she must choose the Messenger (^alayhi ççalâtu wassalâm) over the other, then she finds Ibn Hajar al^asqalâniyy unreliable and untrustworthy because of his explanation.

yes i must chose the messenger over teh other. i'd chose a hadith that has a weakness in its narration over a saying of a recent aalim. but i won't say that Ibn Hajar is unreliable and untrustworthy because of his explanation. i'll just put in advance the saying of the prohpet over the saying of Ibn Hajar. But not accuse the realability of Ibn Hajar or any aaalim.

Then why would she find alBukhâriyy himself to be reliable, since he did an interpretation of the word “wajh” of sura alQaçaç 28:88, stating it meant “mulk”. Is she going to oppose Allâh’s verse to alBukhâriyy and thus consider him unreliable and untrustworthy - indeed, who could be reliable that would dare to attribute meanings to Allâh’s Book, without proof? If alBukhâriyy is not trustworthy, then his book should not be used as evidence

i answered this i think when i was replying to what sister Servant of Islam said. and akhi, no need to assume that i made judgements upon ulama' that i didn't do.

We cannot on the one hand quote from the noble Qur’ân and Hadîth and on the other hand reject the explanations of the Salaf and the khalaf through whom we received both the Book of Allâh and the Sunnah

i don't mean to say to reject teh saying of teh salaf.. or the khalaf. but i ask u.. wouldn't teh qur'an and the sunnah of the prophet be enough to explain teh fundamentals of islam? i believe that they are. And dealing with the mutashabihat and the asma' and sifat is part of the essencial knowledge. So teh least i could do regarding this matter is imitate what the porphet and the compainos said.

It is sad to see that some know so little about Arabic and religion that they can neither see the range of meanings words have, nor accept knowledge from those were competent to teach it

That she HAS to go and get confused with some of the Wahhabi groups (woops, should I use their recent fancy name: “Salafis”?).

confusion comes when i look at ur creed and their creed together. their creed alone doens't confuse me.. ur creed though isnt' as clear to me as theirs.

akhi.. i dont' expect religion to be a puzzle for me and a maze for me to solve... I believe that the qur'an and sunnah were revealed for our guidance.. not misguidance. maybe you people were blessed to have a clear understanding and no confusion 'if u're on the right path'. But u can't know how things could be frustrating when u don't get it and fail to get what others say to u. i meant no disrespect to non of u in my long reply. if i said something that was taken wrong, i do appologise. but God knows how this thing is frustrating me.
fee amanellah..
and sister Servant of Islam.. i ask u by Allah... if u dno't want me to talk about this and drag this.. just tell me to do so.. and i give u my word. I'll shut up.
salam.

[Servant of Islam]

I will reply on this post pumarage, but that does not mean I'm waiting for any other reply.

I gave you my evidences, and in shaa Allah I'll still give you in my reply, I strongly advice you to re-read the thread, I hope you'll be able to see then what I'm talking about, but if not, the discussion will be closed in shaa Allah...

[pumarage]

I will reply on this post pumarage, but that does not mean I'm waiting for any other reply.

this means taht there will be no place for furthur discussion... ?!?!
i gave u my word that i'll hold my tongue if you request that i do so and i understand that u do and so u can consider the topic closed already.

I strongly advice you to re-read the thread, I hope you'll be able to see then what I'm talking about, but if not, the discussion will be closed in shaa Allah...

closed it is then.

fee amanellah and thanks for all .
salam.

[Servant of Islam]

I was supposed to post this reply yeaterday, but my connection went down.... Here it is:
You said pumarrage:

The prophet muhammad peace be upon him said "taraktu feekom ma in tamassaktum bihi lan tadillou ba3diya abada. Kitab Allah wa sunnati" (i've left for you two things that if you hold firm to, you'll never be misguided after me ever. The book of Allah, and my Sunnah)

And the basics that I'm talking about are taken from kitab and sunnah...

and the mind is no judge upon the nusoos! the mind of the human isn't perfect

But we do use our minds to understand it better and be sure that nusoos are explained in the right way>

I remind you of this ayah: ?? ? ?? ? ?? ?? ??
This shows the importance of mind and its judgments, those who are right.

and i just look at the qur'an and the authentic hadith and the saying of teh 4 first khalifas that came after the prohpet. Wouldn't that be enough for me to understand the basic of islam that would save me from Hellfire?

If one followed the Qur'an and haddeth like he must, this would be enough, but who can say about himself that he is knowledgeable enough to explain the hadeeth and Qur'an correctly?

You need to know what scholars said, you need to know what did they have Ijma^ on it and what they didn't...

You mentioned the ayah I think: ?? ?? ?? ? ?? ?? ?? ? ?? ? ?? ? ?? ? ?? ??
The scholars said that this ayah is a proof that one must follow the Ijma^ of scholars... If one doesn't and contradicts it, then he'll be in hellfire on the Day of Judgment.

. i was going to buy his huge volume Majmoo' al fatawa last week... but when i went to get it... i found out that the amount of money i saved wasnt' enough to get it. That's the will of God.

That volume is full of blasphemy pumarage, and I advice you not to spend any money on it.

In this volume, one of Ibn Taymiya's blasphemous sayings is that he claimed that Allah is sitting on the throne, and leaving a place near him for Muhammad peace be upon him to sit next to them wal^iyathubillah!

Ibn taymiya is a guy who used to have some knowledge, but then he was misguided, and many of alwahhabies's sayings are taken from Ibn Taymiah.

You'll probably buy the book....

it's the exact same word used 'ISTAWA'... but the ta'weel came to be Istawla 'as i was taught from people following the AICP'. as to mean Qahara etc. So the same word is repeated several times but it meant something different instead and the apparent meaning that the word chosen implies could lead to kufr??

In the Qur'an, you'll find verses attributing Allah with non resemblance of His creations, which will assure us that istawa does not mean took a place on the throne, and you'll see a verse calling Allah:al_Qahir " ??", but you wont find any ayah attributing Allah with sitting or taking a place... Who is the one then who's making tahreef?

What i'm trying to say is that the verse Quote:
??
seems to be sometimes used to deny ahadeeth or change its meanings and the meaning of verses just that it won't contradict a held belief.

Pumarage... I showed for you the rule that the scholars used to explain this ayah.... Religious judgment are not based on opinions, it's based on clear rules. We are using this ayah as a proof on our right doctrine, and we did not change its meaning, we rather counted on the explanation of scholars to this ayah.

sister.. if you go to the tafseer of the qur'an like Al qurtubi, ibn katheer, Al Tabari, etc.. you'll see sooooooo much talk about this verse

I advice you to read the explanation of Nasafi to this ayah... And I'll post it tomorrow in shaa Allah or later tonight.

[pumarage]

Salam
servant of Islam... i do have a reply to what u said but you requested that i don't answer. So i suggest that we don't drag this as u have requested because i see that i'm accused of implying what i didn't imply like saying that Allah is sitting on the throne! my doctrin regarding asma' and sifat is known to u. I agreed not to answer but if i'm going to be accused of what i don't believe in and if i'm going to be asked questions i don't think it will be still fair for me to stay silent and not reply. this message i'm writing now is no reply to any of what u said in your thread. So don't take it that i broke ur request and replied to u. i didn't discuss any of what you mentioned in ur reply to me.
thx
salam

[alurdumaaniyy]

This is a partial answer. More is coming if Allâh wills.
I pray Allâh to remove the confusion Pumerage complains about, to bring her back in the fold of Ahlu sSunnah where we are waiting for her, ready to welcome her.

Pumerage said : “the saying of a prophet isn't to be countered by a saying of a sahabi or a tabi'i. It could be explained by a saying of a sahabi, but not countered.”

Did anybody quote the saying of a çaHabiyy or a tâbi^iyy countering the Prophet’s Hadîths (çalla-llâhu ^alayhi wasallam)? That would be wrong. I have only read things that explained the meaning of the Qur’ân and Hadîth and these explanations countered your opinion, not the nuçûç.

Pumerage said : “the mind is no judge upon the nusoos!”

Indeed the mind in not the base of our religion. Its two first bases are Qur’ân and Sunnah and the ^aql  (I suppose this is what you translated by “mind”) bears witness to the truth contained in both.

Pumerage said : “the mind of the human isn't perfect, it's rather INCOMPLETE for it to be a judge upon a revelation from Allah where we agreed that Sunnah is a wahy.”

Very true, which is why it is not the base of our religion. But brushing aside the role of ^aql would be to blatantly ignore the Noble Qur’ân where Allâh mentions more than forty times people who use their ^aql and those who do not, praising the former and blaming the latter, then the people of Hell will say: “?? ? ?? ? ?? ?? ?? ” (sura alMulk) which means: “If only we had listened and used our reason (na^qilu) we would not be among the people of Hell”. Here listening is mentioned first for it is through listening that the Message reaches us, so this is the nuçûç; afterwards we find the use of ^aql because how will you see the miracle of the Qur’ân, the truth in it and in the Sunnah, if not by your ^aql?

Pumerage said : “mind isn't a judge but the sanad of the hadith and the narrators of the hadith are to prove if it's authentic or not. that's teh believe i hold.”

A Hadîth without chain is nothing and a Hadîth with a weak, falty or forged chain cannot be used as a base. But without minds (^ûqûl) how would we know whether a Hadîth is reliable or not? Mâlik, alBukhâriyy, Muslim and the others used their minds to find out whether the texts they put in their books were reliable or not. They also used their minds to explain ‘âyât and ‘aHâdîth. It is the minds of Abû Bakr, ^Umar, ^Aliyy, ^Uthmân, ^Aa’ishah, Ibn ^Umar, Abû Hanîfah, Mâlik, ashShâfiîyy, Ibn Hanbal and others (raDiya-llâhu ^anhum) who showed us the connection between the nuçûç and how one naçç explains another.

Pumerage said : “isn't the essencials of beleif clear from teh qur'an and the sunnah? i mean, if i put the saying of the ulama' out of the way and ignore it.. and i just look at the qur'an and the authentic hadith and the saying of teh 4 first khalifas that came after the prohpet. Wouldn't that be enough for me to understand the basic of islam that would save me from Hellfire?”

Well, YOU tell me:
-Can you tell precisely what prayer times should be by just reading the Qur’ân?
-How many years of research is it going to take you to determine precisely the prerequites (shurûT) of prayer, its obligations, sunan, the different levels of its sunan, what is makrûh to do in prayer, what invalidates your prayer, etc, and the same for every other part of your religion; or are you going to recognise that you must be able to rely on trustworthy people who have does most that work for us, allowing us to make faster progress in knowledge?
-Is your Arabic so good that you can actually understand every detail of the Qur’ân or do you rely on someone at any stage to explain to you the meaning of the Book?
-Is there  any ‘âyah or reliable Hadîth which enjoins us to “just look at the qur'an and the authentic hadith and the saying of teh 4 first khalifas”?
-Is there any ‘âyah or reliable Hadîth which forbids or declares ill-advised to benefit from the knowledge and wisdom of  the rest of the Salaf or of the Khalaf who followed them?
-Are you going to destroy the çaHîH of alBukhâriyy you were reading earlier, since the texts (with sanad) in it are those which were çaHîH in HIS opinion and you do not wish to take the opinion of people after the first four khalîfah? People who said  çaHîH alBukhâriyy is the most reliable book of Hadîth all came after the first four khalîfah.
Etc.

[Servant of Islam]

because i see that i'm accused of implying what i didn't imply like saying that Allah is sitting on the throne!

No, I did not accuse you of that pumarage... I think from other discussions I understood your belief regarding this matter.... I was just giving an example and trying to clariy what I'm talking about.

[pumarage]

brother alurdumaaniyy, the answer is easy... leave me your mail so i'll answer u there.. i can't answer u here.  and akhi.. plz read carefully what i wrote before. i didn't ask anyoen to disable the mind. i was talking about a specific situation in which mind couldn't be judge.
i'll be waiting for your mail and i'll explain myself more then insha'Allah.... salam.

[alurdumaaniyy]

I did leave my e-mail a few days ago through a personal message.