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Author Topic: Question about Al-Qur'an  (Read 2715 times)

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Offline Orthopreacher

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So where is the authority?
« Reply #30 on: Tuesday 07 January 2003, 08:51 »
Quote from: ABDULLAH
yes, but many of those groups have things in common. If you consider this, you could regroup them to bigger groups of similar ideas.....

Actually, the cause is that in current Protestant thought, everytime a congregation or some of its members rather, disagree with the administration of their group they split off and form a new one.  In the area that I live, we usually get a new church start and fail on a monthly or bi-monthly basis.  

The number 28000 was from 1999 and the number was growing continuously.  

The problem continues because outsiders that are not Christians, take anyone who claims the name AS Christians.  For instance, the two groups in Northern Ireland that have been fighting for the last 4 centuries, they are known as Catholics and Protestants because they claim those affiliations.  Their behavior is neither accepted nor condoned by either group they claim connection with.

Regardless of any kind of regrouping, claiming a specific number of groups is inaccurate at best.  If you were to group them into similarities you would end up with Eastern or Western; possibly Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant.

You could further divide the Protestants into Liturgical and Non-Liturgical, or Congregational and non Congregational, Pentecostal, Charismatic, Word of Faith, Fundamentalist.

The Baptists alone have gotten more than 72 divisions among themselves and their groups have a tendancy to mesh with more than one group of the larger crowd.

In all, the heresies caused by Rome's rebellion of 1054 number in the thousands and continue to compound due to the rejection of such things as authority and administration.

ciao
paul

Offline Sami Yusuf Islam

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Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: So where is the authority?
« Reply #31 on: Tuesday 07 January 2003, 09:46 »
Quote from: Orthopreacher
In all, the heresies caused by Rome's rebellion of 1054 number in the thousands and continue to compound due to the rejection of such things as authority and administration.
 


Are those the only reasons??

Just their refute of authority and administration??

Offline Orthopreacher

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Authority is most everything
« Reply #32 on: Tuesday 07 January 2003, 09:54 »
Quote from: ABDULLAH
Are those the only reasons??

Just their refute of authority and administration??


That is the basis for deciding that they can interpret or reinterpret scripture for themselves and not adhere to the Apostles' teaching.  We have preserved the Apostles Teaching throughout the ages by the line of Bishops that is unbroken from the first century to the present day.

The people that choose to go off on their own are the ones that in their own arrogance choose to interpret scripture for themselves without regard to the knowledge of the past and without regard to the original language of the scriptures.

When that happens they are refuting the authority and administration of the Church.  The Bishops sit in the seat of the Apostles and have the Apostles' teaching that has been preserved for 2000 years now.  They meet to ensure that all is in compliance when something new comes along.  If someone does not submit to the authority of the Synod of Bishops then they are refuting authority and administration.

ciao
paul

Offline Sami Yusuf Islam

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Re: Authority is most everything
« Reply #33 on: Tuesday 07 January 2003, 14:56 »
Quote from: Orthopreacher
That is the basis for deciding that they can interpret or reinterpret scripture for themselves and not adhere to the Apostles' teaching.  We have preserved the Apostles Teaching throughout the ages by the line of Bishops that is unbroken from the first century to the present day.

The people that choose to go off on their own are the ones that in their own arrogance choose to interpret scripture for themselves without regard to the knowledge of the past and without regard to the original language of the scriptures.

When that happens they are refuting the authority and administration of the Church.  The Bishops sit in the seat of the Apostles and have the Apostles' teaching that has been preserved for 2000 years now.  They meet to ensure that all is in compliance when something new comes along.  If someone does not submit to the authority of the Synod of Bishops then they are refuting authority and administration.

ciao
paul


and is not there any "body" or "committee" to control this??

how do those people get benefit of the so-called "freedom of doctrine" to make new religions??

Offline Orthopreacher

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Re: Re: Authority is most everything
« Reply #34 on: Tuesday 07 January 2003, 16:52 »
Quote from: ABDULLAH
and is not there any "body" or "committee" to control this??

how do those people get benefit of the so-called "freedom of doctrine" to make new religions??

We are not going to hunt them down and stone them.  The councils of Bishops do not chase them down, they allow anyone that is not submitting to them to do as they please.  I cannot impose my will on someone who is not of my own group.  The world would be a mess of wars over religion if we did that.

The Orthodox simply keep to the truth and if someone who is not of the Body of the Orthodox starts their own religion it is not our concern.  That is why there are so many new religions that call themselves Christian.

It is not easy to distinguish for someone like yourself, outside the Christian Church, who belongs where.  We know our own, and we know how do distinguish them, much like you know the Sufi and can identify them by doctrine.

One instance where you have the exact same difficulty is with the "Nation of Islam" in the U.S. headed by Louis Farakhan.  He does not speak for Islam, and from what I have learned in my life, he is nothing like any Muslim that I have ever met.  Could you or anyone actually compel him to stop?  Of course that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?  Your group could not impose and change his teachings.  In the same manner, the Eastern Church can only do what is our mission to do, and the others will continue.

Jesus spoke a parable about this very thing.  He talked about a land owner that sowed seed in his field.  When night fell, his enemy sowed weeds in the same field.  When the seeds sprouted, the servants saw that there were weeds in with the wheat.  The landowner told his servants to leave it alone because uprooting the weeds would harm the good seedling wheat.  He told them to allow the weeds to grow along with the wheat, when harvest came they would separate the wheat from the weeds and burn the weeds.

Jesus said it was that way in the world as well.  The good seed that was sown was the Word of God and His Gospel.  The weeds were those things sown in the hearts of men that were not His Gospel.  On the last day, there will be a separation of the wheat from the weeds and the weeds will be burned.

ciao
paul

Offline Sami Yusuf Islam

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Re: Re: Re: Authority is most everything
« Reply #35 on: Tuesday 07 January 2003, 18:01 »
Quote from: Orthopreacher
The Orthodox simply keep to the truth


What they think is the truth …..  let us be clear..

Quote from: Orthopreacher
One instance where you have the exact same difficulty is with the "Nation of Islam" in the U.S. headed by Louis Farakhan.


Very True.

Quote from: Orthopreacher
He does not speak for Islam,


NO he does not

Quote from: Orthopreacher
and from what I have learned in my life, he is nothing like any Muslim that I have ever met.  Could you or anyone actually compel him to stop?


Nope…

Quote from: Orthopreacher
Of course that would be ridiculous, wouldn't it?  Your group could not impose and change his teachings.


I would try my best to show his followers where Farrakhan deviated from the teachings of the Koran and the Hadith and try to guide them back to those original scriptures, that thanks to Allah, have been well preserved…

Quote from: Orthopreacher
Jesus spoke a parable about this very thing.  He talked about a land owner that sowed seed in his field.  When night fell, his enemy sowed weeds in the same field.  When the seeds sprouted, the servants saw that there were weeds in with the wheat.  The landowner told his servants to leave it alone because uprooting the weeds would harm the good seedling wheat.  He told them to allow the weeds to grow along with the wheat, when harvest came they would separate the wheat from the weeds and burn the weeds.

 
The story is very thought provoking…

Quote from: Orthopreacher
Jesus said it was that way in the world as well.  The good seed that was sown was the Word of God and His Gospel.  The weeds were those things sown in the hearts of men that were not His Gospel.  On the last day, there will be a separation of the wheat from the weeds and the weeds will be burned.


Very True…. May Allah, God, make you and me among the guided ones..

May Allah guide you to Islam Paul.

I wish you that deep from my heart.

Fraternally....... Abdullah.

Offline MFR

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The Language of Scripture.
« Reply #36 on: Sunday 12 January 2003, 17:53 »
Dear young brother Ali,
Salaams.

To answer your question, the best translation that I would recommend is  Pickthall's. His mother tongue was English and it is as important to render meaning appropriately as it is to understand original text.

The fundamental message of the Quran is "There is no god except Allah, and Muhammad is His Servant and Messenger." If you can get that right, then English is A-OK as a vehicle for the Message.

Errant translations abound, but I am sure that your question was not how many errant translations exist.

Dr. Maurice Bucaille read the French Translation and has become the foremost exponent of Quran's exposition of science.

All this talk of the Arabic Quran not being translatable disregards the fact that the only real Quran exists in the Divine Tablet and  that even our renditions in Arabic are Divine transmissions of the same prior message given in the earlier Scriptures. When we read the prayers of prior prophets in the Quran, those originally were uttered in the language of those former peoples. Thus the very Quran itself contains Arabic translations of words and  phrases that represent what the former people said in their mother tongues.

It is a device of the scholars to promote the idea that the Quran is so incomprehensible that only they can understand it since we do not know Arabic. Millions of non-Muslim Arabs have not accepted the Quran despite their mother tongue. What does that prove?

Allah states why He gave the Quran in Arabic : "What? A scripture not in Arabic for an Arab people?" The ideas is deemed silly by Him. Hence, English speaking people equally require a scriptural rendition in their own language and it is left to Allah to guide hearts. Legion are the people who have accepted the Truth of Islam from reading the translation of the Quran in their own language.

In addition to your question, here are some recommendations I had given to another who sought such advice.


Guidelines to reading the Quran:

1. Always begin by seeking refuge in God from Satan, the accursed.
2. Ignore all commentaries and trust God to make plain to you what He
intends.
3. Use your intellect and read the text carefully first within context,
(paying regard to preceding and succeeding verses), and then within the
Holistic context of the entire Quran, as issues are not always dealt with in
one mentioning.
4. Carefully consider who is saying what. The entire Quran is God's Words, but within it may be recorded statements made by others, such as utterances by prior prophets, and personalities.
5. If the Quran seems to be inviting to something that is beneath excellence in any field, then the translation or your understanding may be deficient.
Re-read and contemplate.
6. Read it as Divine Literature, first without deep contemplation, but
continuously for a first grasp of its contents.
7. Read it in the sequence of its compilation, until you are quite familiar
with it before jumping to sections for details.
8. Expect it to differ in details from your familiar scriptures. It was not
sent to replicate, but to confirm and to explain, but with a perspective
aimed at the people to whom it was delivered through their Prophet.
9. Know that the Quran is the sole Islamic authority and it needs no
complementary support or writings.
10. The literal meaning of the Quran must first be applied to what is stated
in clear language.
Allegorical meanings are applicable when a clear literal meaning seems
inappropriate.
11. Always bear in mind that as in all Scripture, God has the Omnipotent
Authority and Right to legislate for or command His Creatures to whatever He Wills howsoever unusual the Command may seem. His bestowing different rituals and faith systems in variety is affirmed in the Quran.

This is not a comprehensive list, but what readily comes to mind.

Disregarding these simple guidelines will cause problems and confusion.

Fraternally.

Offline Muhammed

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Re: The Language of Scripture.
« Reply #37 on: Monday 13 January 2003, 00:21 »
Quote from: MFR
Dear young brother Ali,
Salaams.

To answer your question, the best translation that I would recommend is  Pickthall's. His mother tongue was English and it is as important to render meaning appropriately as it is to understand original text.


in fact the most translations are bad, because they make tashbeeh (they resemble Allah to his creation) and that leads to kufr. Brother Abdullah mentionned that he didnt find a translation which is good. Pickhall's lived in a period of colonianism and desrespect towards Islam. at his time 1830 was the wahhabis resurection in ardh Hijaaz and Lawrance of Arabia also good workers to destroy Islam.

1) Dr. Muhammad Taqi-ud-Din Al-Hilali, Ph.D. and Dr. Muhammad Muhsin Khan

exemple: suratul Fajr

Wajaa rabbuka waalmalaku saffan saffan

And your Lord comes  with the angels in rows

have in mind that Allah said: "laysa kamithlihi shay'" and also if you go from some place it means that you are no longer in the place. That is not perfect , he would be in need for the one who did this imperfection. and the one who is in need doesnt deserve to be worshipped.

  عن الإمام أحمد وهو من السلف ثبت عنه أنه قال في قوله تعالى: (وجاء ربك) جاءت قدرتُه، صحح سند الحافظ البيهقي الذي قال فيه الحافظ صلاح الدين العلائي: "لم يأت بعد البيهقي والدارقطني مثلُهُما ولا من يقاربُهُما" أما قول البيهقي ذلك ففي كتاب مناقب أحمد، وأما قول الحافظ أبي سعيد العلائي في البيهقي والدارقطني فذلك في كتابه الوشيُ المُعلَم وأما الحافظ ابو سعيد فهو الذي يقول فيه الحافظ ابن حجر: شيخ مشايخِنا.  

   صح ايضاً التأويل التفصيلي عن الإمام أحمد فقد ثبت عنه أنه قال في قوله تعالى: (وجآء ربُك)  قال: اي تأتي قدرته، اي قدرة الله تأتي يوم القيامه اي يظهر أثر قدرة الله يوم القيامه، آثارٌ عظيمه تظهر. كلمة جآء المعنى الظاهر لها انه إنتقال من مكان الى مكان آخر لكن لها معانيٍ أخرى. في ذلك اليوم يصطف                                                      الملائكةُ صفوفاً يحيطون بالإنس والجن لعُظم ذلك اليوم فلا يستطيع احدٌ من الإنس والجن ان يخرج من ذلك المكان إلا بسلطان اي بحجّه اي إلا بإذنٍ من الله، ذلك اليوم تظهر أمورٌ عظيمه، جهنم التي هي بعيدةٌ جده هي الآن تحت الأرض السابعه في يوم القيامه يجرّه سبعون ألف ملك كل منهم يكون بيده سلسله، الناس وهم في ذلك الموقف يجر الملائكه جهنم حتى يراها الناس، ثم يردّونها الى مكانها هذا شيء واحد من أهوال ذلك اليوم، هذا التفسير الذي ذكره الإمام أحمد رواه عنه البيهقي في كتابه مناقب أحمد، وقال إسناده الى أحمد صحيح.  وهذا الحافظ البيهقي من كبار حفّاظ الأُمه وعلمائها، من كبار العلماء، كان ماهراً جداً في الحديث حتى قال الحافظ العلائي: ما جآء بعد البيهقي والدارقطني مثلهما ولا من يقاربهما اي في علم الحديث، ذكر ذلك العلائي في كتابه الوشي المعلم.  وهذا العلائي ايضاً من كبار العلماء، الحافظ إبن حجر الذي هو مشهور جداً يقول عنه: هو شيخ مشايخنا.  


The aya means: " it means a great matter (of horror) will appear on that day and the Angels will  form raws (lines around the people  on the Day of Judgment"

and the translation of Pickthall will not be better then that, in fact we are looking for the best translation and i hope once we would be proud to reply to the demand of a correct translation.


Quote

The fundamental message of the Quran is "There is no god except Allah, and Muhammad is His Servant and Messenger." If you can get that right, then English is A-OK as a vehicle for the Message.


click here to know more: The Truth


Quote

Dr. Maurice Bucaille read the French Translation and has become the foremost exponent of Quran's exposition of science.


once again the translation of Dr. Maurice Bucaille is not a good one, the best that we find was the muntakhab translation and there were still enormous errors. we are working on it to have a good translation but we need time , so patience pls

Quote

It is a device of the scholars to promote the idea that the Quran is so incomprehensible that only they can understand it since we do not know Arabic. Millions of non-Muslim Arabs have not accepted the Quran despite their mother tongue. What does that prove?


Thats a dangerous statement, it means that everybody can understand the Quran how he understands it (his mind). thats not the way of the sounis. We believe and apply what the messenger of Allah sallallahu ^aleyhi wa sallam said: innamal ^ilm bi ta^alum. of course a scholar who studied it in a correct way would more understand then a non scholar. But there are even arabs who misunderstand some verses and give a wrong translation. even a translation who can lead to kufr wal ^iyaada billah.

Quote

Allah states why He gave the Quran in Arabic : "What? A scripture not in Arabic for an Arab people?" The ideas is deemed silly by Him. Hence, English speaking people equally require a scriptural rendition in their own language and it is left to Allah to guide hearts. Legion are the people who have accepted the Truth of Islam from reading the translation of the Quran in their own language.


thats a very dangerous statement, its like you know that some translations are bad with kufr but Allah guide the hearts , truely Allah guide who He wants. but it is not logic this way of work.
like i let you eat poison and say Allah will cure you. we say in french mieux vaut prévenir que guérir.
we dont say About Allah ta^ala "The ideas is deemed silly by Him"


Quote

2. Ignore all commentaries and trust God to make plain to you what He
intends.


non sens thats the badst advice u can give because there are two kinds of aya part I  part II  (click on the link) and if you mess up with that then it can lead you out of the Religion. Learn the Quran with an Imam, not alone because the Shaytaan will be your teacher

Quote

3. Use your intellect and read the text carefully first within context,
(paying regard to preceding and succeeding verses), and then within the
Holistic context of the entire Quran, as issues are not always dealt with in
one mentioning.


That is a bad way i am warning you brother , the way you ask ppl to act is not in the right way. click here to know if you talk without knowledge Speaking without knowledge a dangerous matter

this thread shall be removed , if it was me

Offline Sami Yusuf Islam

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Question about Al-Qur'an
« Reply #38 on: Monday 13 January 2003, 04:09 »
may Allah bless your hands Muhammed.

Offline Muhammed

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Question about Al-Qur'an
« Reply #39 on: Monday 13 January 2003, 05:23 »
Quote from: ABDULLAH
may Allah bless your hands Muhammed.


Allahumma ameen

 



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