Topic: A history about Our Prophet Isa( Jesus)

[alurdumaaniyy]

The Quraysh were successful traders indeed and I do not think any of us here implied anything unbecoming about our prophet MuHammad (çalla-llâhu ^alayhi wasallam). What I wrote is "They would have stuck together because Arabs had a bad reputation ". I only use the word "Syria" for convenience for most English speaking readers are unlikely to know the name this area had then.

I am pointing to the fact that it does not make sense that, as some Christian missionaries would have us believe, MuHammad (çalla-llâhu ^alayhi wasallam) would have wandered on his own in Syria and learned Christian and Jewish scriptures and then used them to write the holy Qur'ân.

Syria was not always a safe environment for Arabic traders. The locals would either have been unable to differentiate between a Qurashi trader and a marauding Bedouin. The Qurashis would have stuck to a safe route where they had known contacts and would also stay with their caravan. Any member of the caravan who would have wandered on his own would have been noticed.

[alurdumaaniyy]

As for the links between some parts of the Qur’ân and books used by Christians and Jews at the time. They have been used by some orientalists such as Blachère and missionaries to try and prove their point that the Qur’ân was just copied from these books.

There is the list of religious books mentioned by Blachère :
-Genesis (Bible, in Hebrew, not translated in Arabic at the time).
-The apocryphal gospel of the childhood of Jesus, Armenian version, not translated in Arabic at the time.
-The Talmud (In Hebrew and Aramaic, not translated in Arabic at the time).
-The Judaic Midrash (not translated in Arabic at the time).
-The Targum (Paraphrase of the Old Testament in Chaldean, not translated in Arabic at the time)
-The New Testament (Bible, in Greek or Latin, not translated in Arabic at the time).
-Pseudo Matthew (I actually do not know what language this one was written in, but Arabic is not an option).
-The Wisdom of Ahiqar (Arabic and Ethiopian version).
-Anecdota syriaca (In Assyrian/Aramaic ?)

-Some even claim the holy Qur’ân was partly copied from the Avesta, whose language is Avestic or Zend !

These accusation are mutually defeating for how would MuHammad (çalla-llâhu ^alayhi wasallam) have had such encyclopaedic references available to him? Many of these books were extremely rare and are hard to find to this day. They were often written in languages known only by a minority of experts.

These slanderer suggest that MuHammad (çalla-llâhu ^alayhi wasallam) mastered these languages while managing to hide this exceptional knowledge from his environment, in the little town Mecca was at the time, where everybody knew everybody else.

Or do they suggest that the Prophet (çalla-llâhu ^alayhi wasallam) had such a rich library, which left no trace, was never discovered, neither by friends nor foes?

Some Pagans claimed he had slaves dictating to him, but where would he have managed to gather such scholarly slaves? In Mecca? It would have been hard to gather them in one place in the Persian and Byzantian capitals.

The links between some Qur’ânic verses and other religious books (some of which I know myself) are due to the traces left in those forged  books, of the previous revelations. They show that the last revelation confirmed the previous ones, while denouncing what had been tampered with.

[Ihab]

Only two points:
1- Alhamdulillah, who sent the prophet Mohammad 3alayhi Assalat wa Assalam. It was famous amongst all the people who lived around the prophet and it is known to any normal Muslim walking down the street if you ask him he'll say : the Prophet Mohammad never wrote or read (oummi).
When we say the prophet was not a reader or a writer, this is praise (madh) for him (unlike when it is said about normal people like me and you) because even if he didn't  read or write Allah gave him knowledge he gave no other, Allah gave him value he gave no other, Allah chose him and created him to be the best of the entire world, the best creation of Allah.
So how could he have read their books?
2- the Arabs were famous to be very fluent in Arabic, they had poetry other nations lacked and still don't have, their play with words and "eloquence" was and is still famous all across the land and their poetry still taught in schools and universities today.
But no one could, and no one will ever come up with an Ayah similar to the Quor'an. The Arabs heard the Quor'an , and they couldn't invent anything like one Ayah from it.

 go ask around every muslim child knows those two facts. no need to go into encyclopedias.

these simple statements, are enough answer to all christian liars.

[alurdumaaniyy]

They are certainly enough for you and me.

[pumarage]

who said that the bible and the torah are totally modified and altered!?! what prove is there? To say that there is not even a word left from teh revelation in them! what is the prove? Don't u know that there are jews who beleive in the prophet muhammad peace be upon him to be the last prophet as it is in their Torah? They beleive in him as a prophet but they are 'or so they say' the followers of moses. They even read teh qur'an but they say, we beleive that muhammad is a messenger as it is written in our torah, but the messenger we follow is moses. So to say that nothing from the truth of revelation is left in the bible, torah or whatever is simply talking without knowledge.

[alurdumaaniyy]

I see pumarage's point.

[Ihab]

Pumarage and Alurdumaaniyy
When I read your posts 2 weeks ago I couldn't reply. Some people just can't get it.
But truly I have to tell you these things:
The original Bible and Torah were changed, we all agree on that. Now to which extents? They changed the meanings first, then the wording. Then they calimed that they are translating it, they translated the changed wording many many times into many languages untill now the falsified bible is in English.
even 1 1/2 years ago when I first came to the US, they changed the Engilsh wording as they do every year or so. they replaced every word that indicates "male" into a non gender specific word.
How can someone claim that there are similarities? and where are they if you claim them?
in the translation itself the bible and the torah are totally modified and altered. So what about the change in words and meanings that people made to the original ones? change upon change upon change that you can't see?
The person who claims something must bring his proof. Bring your proof to what you claim and show us one verse that is the same or is similar to an Ayah in the Quor2an, and you won't find any, or else don't say anything about this matter because you truly don't know yourself.


Also the word "believe" can't be used about the jews because they are not believers. belief means "2iman" and you can't use that word and attribute it to a Kafir Blasphemer. We say the Jews "knew" that the Prophet Mo7ammad 3alayh assalat wa assalam was truthfull and some of them in his time may have converted to Islam but to our time and through history even if the jews know he is the messenger of Allah, they do not "believe" in him or his message.

[pumarage]

salam
ihab, the jews who believe in muhammad peace be upon him are called Al Yahood al Saamirah or Al Saamiriyyeen. And BELEIVE is the word because they beleive that he is a prophet of Allah not simply KNOW him peace be upon him.
Who said that old scriptures were identical to the holy Qur'an? i donno, but i ddn't say that neither did i imply so ihab.

and by the way, from what i know those jews i mentioned use the anceint hebrew language that not all jews of today understand and i have no access to their book to bring u quotes from it but i said whatever little i knew only. But if u say that all is totally modified, then how do u explain the talk of their rabie that i saw when he was saying that the name muhammad is written in our torah? And i had once a takl with a christian man who believes in jesus peace be upon him to be a prophet and nothing but a prophet according to their bible and they forbid drinking alcohol and eating pork as we do... there are just too many things that if the bible or torah were 100% changed and altered leaving nothing from the original meaning if not exact text.. soo many things wouldn't or shouldn't  have been there. However, Neglecting all this and putting it aside.. what difference will it make to u, or me or to anyone who is a muslims if there is a word of truth is left in the torah, or bible or if there isn't? what is the point of this discussion now?
ihab.. think whatever u want to think of others.. that's something of no concern to me and i don't see the reason of you saying that. If u said that just to imply an insult or such, then that's ur problem also. i don't claim to be a aalim or a faqeeh or even close to being so. So i end this discussion by subhanaka Allahumma wa bi7amdik, ash-hadu an laa ila illa ant. Astaghfiruka wa atoobu ilayk.

[Ihab]

:madad1:  I thought we were talking about the modified and altered copies that the people of the book have right now???