Topic: ABU HURAIRAH

[Muslim Sunni Ashaari]

Originally posted by abaleada

To sum it up, my intention was to provide information about the fiqh of Shi`i and Sunni Islam, not to justify , provide daleel, or prove a point.

this would have been enough to make your point clear…

Originally posted by abaleada

I have been proceeding through the thread in the order of the posts

so how long should we wait before you answer the issues of the ^aqidah

Originally posted by abaleada

I am well aware of the differences between Shi`i and Sunni Islam, especially in regards to matters of `aqidah

we are all aware of that, and this is NOT the point we are discussing here. We are trying to discuss here who is right, who is wrong, to sum it up.

Originally posted by abaleada
I have no desire to change anyone here from his (editorial he) beliefs

do you have to say this in every single post of yours ??

Originally posted by abaleada
through useless debate.

this IS the point. The fact that you consider a debate about the aqeeda and the doctrine of islam , as useless…….

Originally posted by abaleada
That is again why I did not offer any proofs in my previous postings. The

this is again one of your tricks of trying to allude to the readers that you DO have proofs, but you are not providing us with those for the sake of "avoid infighting"

Originally posted by abaleada
differences exist

and we have the proofs on our aqeeda and that you have a lot of devious stuff in your doctrine.

Originally posted by abaleada

, they exist for certain reasons

yes, one group deviated from the path of the prophet, Aal al bayt and the companions of the prophet. This is the same group that calls names 2 wives of the prophet, that throws cheap accusations against Aisha, and that have so many devious stuff in doctrine.

Originally posted by abaleada
. All that I hope for is that people would be aware of what the differences really are.

Oh my God!  Did you discover this by yourself or someone helped you find this out???

[Zahhaad]

There ya go ladies and gentlemen,

An admission from somebody with much more knowledge about the internal circles of the Shi^ah; an admission that indeed the belief that the twelve Imams are higher than most Prophets is most definitely a belief GENERALLY held by Shi^ah Muslims.

What I find peculiar is that some of the brothers and sisters do not realise that this is the mainstream Shi^ah belief, and even try to say that it isn't, meanwhile the Shi^ah themselves clearly admit that it is!

This is the well known Shi^ah belief which you would find amongst the typical Shi^ite on the street. Of course, I don't encourage to ask them regarding what they believe, but nevertheless this is the reality of the matter.

I do add however, that many a Shi^iyy don't even know what their own books teach! On PalTalk once, I found a Shi^iyy trying to say that Jews and Christians would go to Jannah. This is definitely NOT a Shi^iyy belief, but he seemed to think that it was!

I also add that there is such a thing as general and widespread misconceptions about what the Shi^ah believe, such that many people hold such and such an opinion to be a mainstream Shi^iyy belief whereas in fact it is not. An example of this is the claim of the Wahabis that the Shi^ah claim that the Qur'an we have today is not genuine and it is distorted. This is a lie, the mainstream Shi^ah do not say this, and rather they insist as we do that the Qur'an has not changed or been distorted an iota.

However, as I insisted the whole time, there is no doubt that the claim that the Imams are higher than most Prophets is a mainstream Shi^ah belief maintained generally by Shi^iyys.

[Muslim Sunni Ashaari]

However, as I insisted the whole time, there is no doubt that the claim that the Imams are higher than most Prophets is a mainstream Shi^ah belief maintained generally by Shi^iyys.

True


we have the proof on this now.


you are right

[abaleada]

so how long should we wait before you answer the issues of the ^aqidah

[/b]

assalaamu `alaykum
I already mentioned one - belief regarding the status of Imams. I am sorry that you missed it. Another issue that I saw mentioned here is that of seeing Allah in the Hereafter. There is nothing to add to what has already been said - Sunnis believe in the vision of Allah in the Hereafter, and Shi`is do not. That was all said before. In addition to this, things have been said with which I disagree, and I do not consider them to be representative of Shi`i Islam. If anyone wants, I can point them out.

If you are impatient for replies here, there have been several texts whose English translations have been placed on the internet regarding Shi`i Beliefs. Among them are "On The Beliefs of the Shi'a Imamiya" by Saduq and "Tenets of Islam" by Tusi. I know of one other that is available online, by a more modern author. These texts can be compared to/contrasted with Sunni texts such as "Al `Aqidah al-Tahawiyyah," "The Creed of Imam ibn Asakir," or "Al Fiqh al Akbar." There are also some texts written by authors on polemical issues between Shi`i and Sunni Islam. These are more often referred to in debates and discussions between Shi`i and Sunni Muslims. Zahhad knows of at least one, and I am familiar with some others.

We are trying to discuss here who is right, who is wrong, to sum it up.

[/b[

I'm sorry if my lack of enthusiasm for this kind of discussion displeases you. I already said that I have no desire to change anyone's beliefs. I have also mentioned that there are books written on the subject of Sunni-Shi`i polemics. One can refer to them as often as he wishes if he wants to see the issues and the defence of differring opinions on them.

this IS the point. The fact that you consider a debate about the aqeeda and the doctrine of islam , as useless…….

I mentioned my reasons for that. What I say on the issue of debating between Sunni Islam and Shi`i Islam is that I prefer discussions in which information is exchanged. I know that the majority of people prefer to debate or to prove the correctness of their beliefs; and that some want to defend their beliefs. I simply don't see the need, since polemical discussions and books have been published. Most of what you or I would say has already been said or written. And a lot of that is available for free on the internet.

You might be interested in a response that I made on the thread regarding Umar in the Teachings forum. I didn't discuss very much about Umar, since most of my information about him comes from websites outside of the AICP. However, I did mention some methods that I prefer when discussing differences between Shi`i and Sunni Islam.

this is again one of your tricks of trying to allude to the readers that you DO have proofs, but you are not providing us with those for the sake of "avoid infighting"

If you feel that I am trying to trick anyone, or to deceive anyone, please feel free to say so and to provide the reference for your point. I believe as a Muslim that it is wrong to deceive people, and that one should only do that if his life or limb is in imminent danger, and even then only while hating the deed. These principles are from Ammar's situation when he feared for his life and then approached Prophet Muhammad for guidance on his actions.

I said before that the differences between Sunni and Shi`i Islam have been discussed several times before by various people, and that I see no need for me to repeat their agruments when I could just as easily refer someone to those works. You're right, I do see debating as infighting - especially after what I saw on this thread. It reflects most of my experiences whenever Sunni and Shi`i Islam has been discussed. I do see a difference between a debate and a discussion. I also add here that I do not feel as if I have any proofs. I am not a scholar. I have only recently learned to discuss some of the proofs for the unity of Allah in the face of al wahhabiyya al mujasima. I am a small and incapable learner of Islam; anyone who sees my feeble attempts in discussing even tawhid can verify that.

and we have the proofs on our aqeeda and that you have a lot of devious stuff in your doctrine.

[/b]

Thank you for the reminder that there are differences of `aqidah between Shi`i and Sunni Islam. I think that I have also said this, albeit not with the words that you have used. My own opinion of Shi`i Islam obviously doesn't need to be mentioned. I am, however, grateful for your concern that I follow the most correct doctrine. Inshallah all of us will be guided and will attain Paradise.

Were it not for the tremendous amount of writings about Islamic `aqidah from the Ahlul Sunnah wal Jama`ah, it would be difficult to refer them to the true teachings of Sunni Islam when they attack monotheism (tawhid), Prophetic innocence (ismah), and other issues.

...calls names 2 wives of the prophet, that throws cheap accusations against Aisha...

[/b]

You must have had some bad experiences with Shi`i Muslims, and I apologise for this. If something in particular that someone has said to you in the past concerns you, feel free to mention it.

Oh my God!  Did you discover this by yourself or someone helped you find this out???

I think that you intended to be sarcastic when you said this. Please let me know if your intention was otherwise.

Usually I learn about Islam from people who know more than I do. It takes a genius brain to figure out things like `aqidah and fiqh without referring to the guidance of one who is more learned. I don't have a genius brain.

If I have said anything that offended you, I apologise.
wassalaamu `alaykum wa rahmatullah
-Abbie

[abaleada]

What I find peculiar is that some of the brothers and sisters do not realise that this is the mainstream Shi^ah belief, and even try to say that it isn't, meanwhile the Shi^ah themselves clearly admit that it is!

...

I also add that there is such a thing as general and widespread misconceptions about what the Shi^ah believe, such that many people hold such and such an opinion to be a mainstream Shi^iyy belief whereas in fact it is not. An example of this is the claim of the Wahabis that the Shi^ah claim that the Qur'an we have today is not genuine and it is distorted. This is a lie, the mainstream Shi^ah do not say this, and rather they insist as we do that the Qur'an has not changed or been distorted an iota.

There is actually a lot of misunderstanding between Shi`i and Sunni Muslims about what their respective beliefs are. As you mentioned the case about the presumed belief in tahrif ul Qur'an, it has also been said that Shi`i Muslims worship Imam `Ali - which casts one out of Islam - or beliefe that Imam `Ali was a prophet or should have been prophet - again, this casts one out of the folds of Islam. A`udhi billah. Such is recognised by the scholars of Shi`i Islam. It is the same when a Shi`i Muslims tries to accuse Sunni Muslims of beliefing that Allah has hands and face and sits on a throne wa i`yadhu billah ta`ala. It doesn't help any when such mushriks attempt to interject in a dialogue and spew their misinformation about.

Of course, I don't encourage to ask them regarding what they believe, but nevertheless this is the reality of the matter.

[/b]

Of course, unless one's life or limb is in danger, we Shi`i Muslims - all Muslims, in fact - are required to speak and act honestly. In a way, I agree with not asking just anyone about Shi`i or Sunni beliefs, because not everyone is qualified to speak about the subject, themselves being in need of learning more. Better to ask someone who has acquired some education about Shi`i doctrine or refer to a text of creed from one of our scholars. One of the reasons that I am particular about whom I ask regarding matters of Sunni `aqidah or fiqh is because I am aware of the impact that the teachings of the wahhabis have had.

However, as I insisted the whole time, there is no doubt that the claim that the Imams are higher than most Prophets is a mainstream Shi^ah belief maintained generally by Shi^iyys.

Zahhad, you do deserve respect for your constant seeking of knowledge. I know from my experiences in PalTalk that you are one of the major sources of information about the wahhabiyyah because of how much you have read on the subject; and I know how much you strive after information about the Shi`i sect. I think that it was you who referred us at Light of Islam to a certain geocities-based site containing some "fatawa" of al Albani and ibn Taymiyah.
-Abbie

[pumarage]

Assalamu alaikum all....

Abaleada? are you from the Al Ja'fariyya Al Ithna 3ashariyya? or some other group of Shia. and if you are from the Ithna Ashariyya... which group of them do you belong to? who's your imam? Chirazi? fadlalla? who? this will make a difference. even among the 12 imamis shia... there are differences at times.

Zahhaad, SOME shia do believe in what you said that the wahhabies claimed about them. and El Hamdulillah, i did have a chance to talk to one of those people. Some do claim that the Qur'an is changed. But Again... it's a group of them... and i can't generalize and say all of them do. And yes, they call it mus7af fatima. But they are not big numbered and they are in Pakistan from what i know and God knows best. However, the some of the Ithna asharis i know and talked to believed in the qur'an we have... but the tafseer of it was similiar about what i heard about the text of Mus7af Fatima. As to where Imam Ali was the topic of every verse in the Qur'an. and that's something i saw.. not only heard.

guys.. such discussion is somewhat hard and it's harder to reach any point out of it. There is no common ground between Ahlussunnah and the Shia for us to stand on and discuss islam much. Shia don't take in consideration our main and most authentic sources of Hadith 'Which is Bukhari and Muslim' and they take no haddith narrated by Abu Huraira and Aisha and Abdullah Ibn Omar... etc. and again.. this doesn't apply on All Shia.. but the Ja'fariyya in general don't believe in our hadith book. Yes, the Qur'an is what is common between us. But as the sunnah isn't even the same... this makes the tafseer of the qur'an different too. Shia refer to books like Al Kafi and tafseer al Qur'an lil Qummi!

And one other thing... The shiraziyyeen are the ones who keep cursing the companions of the prophet peace be upon him and they even call Aisha a Zania authubillah. but those who follow imam fadlallah don't do that... although they don't like most of the companions.. but they do not insult them. The group of Shia that respects the companions all and say even radia Allahu anhum are the Shia the Zaydiyyeh.. they are not big numbered. They make takfeer to Mu3awiyah radia Allahu 3anhu and to Yazeed bin Mu3awiyah upon him from Allah whatever he deserves.

So i suggest... and i may be wrong.. to use logic more than nosoos in discussing islam with shia. Beacuse a nass that u may bring is a nass that may mean nothing to them.. and the same goes the other way... so that would be just an endless circle. And Allahu a3lam.

Subhanaka Allahumma Wa bi7amdik, Ash'hadu An Laa ilaha illa ant, Astaghfiruka wa atoobu ilayk.
salam.

[Zahhaad]

Some very interesting points, brother Pumarage. You said the Zaydiyyah make Takfir of Mu^awiyah? Are you sure about that, I never heard of such a thing before. Sounds very extreme, wal ^iyadhu Billah.

[pumarage]

Salam....
i'm positive.. but i'll double check less i was mistaken when i said that they make takfeer to Mu'wayiah radia Allah 3anh. i'll try contacting the guy today insha'Allah.
salam