salam aleikom.
dear bronze, we gave you proof, i think that all of this thread is full of proof and documented. and we gave you the names of the books and even the pages ( were there is a contradiction of meenings).
i advise you to read all the thread carefully. and if you need more proof, we will give you more information.
Bismillah, Alhamdulillah,
Asselamu Alaikum Sadaqa,
I involved your name and post just to show an attitude that lacks justice and rely on baseless assertion: Here is what I wrote last time:
To show that most accusation against Ibn Taymiyya do not qualify Takfir - in relation to the title of this thread as posted by Sadaqa: "The first person to make this false claim was a man who lived some 600 years ago, by the name of Ahmad Ibn Taymiyah. This man falsely stated that it is not permissible to ask Allah for things except by he who is alive and present" - Did anybody bother to consider the need to present the position of Ibn Taymiyya so that others could know the whole truth - It appears that the accuser presents the charges and makes the Judgement. Here is Ibn Taymiyyas position supported by the practice of the best of this Ummah, the Sahaba (ridwanullahi 'alaihim):
In Al Iqtid'a Siratal Mustaqim Ibn Taimiyya says,
" Umar's words, We used to ask our Prophet to invoke You for rain, and You would bless us with rain, and now we ask his uncle (Al-Abbas), mean that 'before we used appeal to you through the Prophet's supplication, Intercession and appeal, and now we do that through that of his Uncle', and certainly not that 'we swear to you by him', or something of the sort the inovators wont to do after the Prophet's death. ... it should be clearly borne in mind that the tawassul mentioned of the early Muslims was sought of the living, to the exclusion of the dead. The living are sought for their appeal and intercession, while the dead
cannot be invoked for anything, Du'a or whatever else."
The Practice of Umar Ibn Al-Khattaab when he asked , Al-'Abbaas, to supplicate for the Muslims imply the abandoning of Tawassul through the Messenger of Allah (sallalahu alaihi wa sallam) in the presence of the Sahaba is a clear evidence. It is also reported that Mu'awiya (radiallahu 'anhu) used Yazid (not his son) who is considered the most pious among the people of his time, following the example of Umar (radiallahu 'anhu) . To strengthen such a position, Imaam Abu Hanifa (ruhmatullahi alaihi) said; " And I detest that Allaah should be asked (for something) except by Allaah" - Durr ul-Mukhtaar; Abu Yusuf also said the same thing.
Why accuse Ibn Taymiyya of being the first??? Is this not a question of Fiqh were disagreement is allowed? I have read most of what you call "a lot of evidence" and i find it to be the kind of charges that political groups make against one another. They are based on those issues that you disagree about another group or individual. In most cases you present the accusation and then simply declare your disgust expecting to influence the opinions of others; and never expect the other side to justify his position. If a person is satisfied with this type of argument, no sincere discussion is possible. Most of the accusations against Ibn Taymiyya are based on Tahreef of his words; such as when He writes the saying of others, his detractors ommit his words "they say" at the begining of the his statement and make it appear as his words - I will provide an example of this Tahrif refuting one of the accusation posted bu Muhammad (see below). In contrast a Muslim is required to justify his position clearly and be a witness for Allah (subhanehu wa ta'alaa), and not defend his group's position in all cases. Ibn Taymiyya quots in his book: "The people of truth will mention what supports their position, and what is against their position". Reflect on the command of Allah (subhanehu wa ta'alaa):
"O ye who believe ! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (than ye are) . So follow not passion lest ye lapse ( from truth ) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do."- Surah An-Nisa' 135.
An example of the Tahrif of Ibn Taymiyya's words can be observed from what Muhammed posted, Muhammed wrote:
"Ibn Taymiyah's statement in "Sharh Hadith ^Imran Ibn Husayn", page 193,: If the kind of the creations is assumed to be eternal with Allah, this companionship is not negated by the Shar^ or the mind, but it is of His perfection. Allah, ta^ala, said that the One Who creates is not equal to whoever does not create. Then Ibn Taymiyah said: The creation existed eternally with Him. Then he said: but many people confuse the self with the kind."
What Muhammed did was to doctor (tahrif) of Ibn Taymiya's statement and present them out of context such that he makes Ibn Taymiyya own a belife that he is innocent from - Muhammed's claim contains misinterpretations and partial truth - in the same manner a person who quotes the Ayah, "woe unto worshippers" and omit the relevant part, "Who are heedless of their prayer". I have translated the relevant parts (see below) so that Ibn Taymiya's position can be understood correctly. Ibn Taymiyya said:
"Also, the meaning of Al-Azal (eternity): the absence of begining, and eternity (Al-Azal) is not something finite. And our saying: He is always Qadir, context on our saying: He is eternaly Qadir, and His being Qadiran is an eternal description and has no begining. Similarly, if it is said: He is eternaly Muatakaliman as He wills, and he eternaly does what He wills, this implies that he is eternaly Mutakaliman, wa Fa'ilan (doing) with His will and His Power (Qudrah). If any one believes that this implies the pre-existing things with Him, it would be because of the unsoundness of his imagination. Since He is the creater of all things, anything other than Him (Allah), is created and preceded with non-existance (Adam); and there is nothing with Him that is eternal with His eternity. If it is said: He always creates, its meaning is that He is always creating a creation after another creation the way He continues, in perpetuity, to create a creation after creation. We negate what we negate of the occurences (hawadith) and activities, thing after thing. And there is nothing in this except to describe Him (Allah) with continuity of action and NOT because there is a an act of the created kind with HIM.
If the kind of the creations is assumed to be eternal with Allah, this companionship is not negated by the Shar^ or the mind, but it is of His perfection. Allah, ta^ala, said that the One Who creates is not equal to whoever does not create. These creations always existed with Him and in their existance with Him in the future there is nothing that will negate His Perfection, and the eternity of the Future. Given that, in the past it (the created) was created after being non-existant; since every created thing has a begining although we can't be absolutly certain that it will have an end. And this is the distinction concerning individual creation and it is a valid distinction. But many people confuse the self with the kind similar to the case where many people confused concerning Al-Kalaam (of Allah); they do not deferentiate between His Kalaam being eternal (Qadeeman), with the understanding that He always speaks (Lam Yazil Mutakaliman) as He wills, and the particular Kalaam being eternal (Qadeeman)." - Sharh Hadith ^Imran Ibn Husayn.
As you can see from the complete presentaion, Ibn Taymiyya clearly says that "Allah (subhanehu wa Ta'alaa) is the creater of all things, anything other than Him (Allah), is created and preceded with non-existance (Adam)".
Now consider the positions of Ash'ariya and Maturidiya as described by Shaikh abdulahi Al-Harari, in Daleel Al-Qaweem (page 76 and 75). I will leave that to you and do hope you post those positions as described by Shaikh abdulahi Al-Harari in Daleel Al-Qaweem so that the readers can contrast them with Ibn Taymiya's positions. See also Kitaab Al-Arabaeen of Fakhrudeen Ar-Razi (rahimahullah), under the title, "Fi Bayaan annahu ta'alaa yamtaniu' an yakuna muhilan lil Hawadith" where he says (i will post the transliteration):
"Wa Amma Al-Asha'ariya Fa-Innahum yuthbituna al-nuskh wa-yufasirunahu bi an-nahu raf' al-hukm at-thabit aw intiha' al-hukm. Wa 'alaa al-taqdeerain fa-innahu i'itiraaf bi wuqoo'
at-taghyeer lianna al-ladhi 'irtafa' wa intaha fa-qad adem ba'd wujudih" - Kitab Al Arbaeen fi Usool Ad-deen, page 118, by Fakhrudeen Ar-Razi.
Allah (subhanehu wataalaa) loves justice:
"O ye who believe ! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (than ye are) . So follow not passion lest ye lapse ( from truth ) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do."- Surah An-Nisa' 135"
Wasselatu Wasselam 'alaa Resulillah,
Salaam,
edited by Muhammed, i toke "sheykh al islam" away from Ibn Taymiyyah
