Author Topic: Ibn Taymiyah, the devious innovator ...  (Read 7285 times)

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Anonymous

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Re: La Haula Wala Quwwata Illa Billah
« Reply #20 on: Saturday 18 January 2003, 14:43 »
Assalaam u'alaikum brother Zaid. Please visit the following site:

links are not allowed

And you will get to know how this people being lead astray by the ignorant ones, whom they take as their leaders. They claim that the Salaf were on the same 'Aqiedah and Manhaj. This a claim which is slander against our Pious Predecessors.

Excuse me for my English, as it is not a native language for me.

'Abdulwahid

Offline Maqdisee

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Ibn Taymiyah, the devious innovator ...
« Reply #21 on: Saturday 18 January 2003, 18:52 »
The forum is full of clear information that proves that the belief of Ash3aryah is the same as the belief that the prophet and his companions and followers had, and that of Muslims until this day.
Therefore it doesn't present any new ideology, rather the Imam Abu Alhasan Al Ash3aree summarized that belief to make it easier to teach to all Muslims, and so they would be aware of deviated sects that contradict the true Islamic belief.
ALLAH EXISTS WITHOUT A PLACE AND DOESN'T RESEMBLE ANY OF HIS CREATION

This Forum was meant to teach the visitors this FACT with very strong and clearly cited proofs.

Please go through the links and learn

Offline Ammar

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Ibn Taymiyah, the devious innovator ...
« Reply #22 on: Sunday 19 January 2003, 22:15 »
I wounder, if here anyone who has read his book "Gavsul ibad"?

Offline ABDU

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Ibn Taymiyah, the devious innovator ...
« Reply #23 on: Monday 20 January 2003, 01:47 »
why Ammar??

did you read it??

Offline bronze

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Ibn Taymiyah, the devious innovator ...
« Reply #24 on: Friday 07 February 2003, 17:24 »
Quote from: Servant of Islam
Dear hafida, first i would like to welcome u in TalkaboutIslam :wave2 , the best english forum on the web(Y)
 
And I would like to comment on ur post:
Ibn Tayniyah has his own beliefs , right, it is what he believd in , right again, he saw that this is his path, and he said that this is the right one which is wrong.
In islam, there is a creed to be believed in, one creed for all muslims, the essentials of beliefs are not diffrent between muslims.
Our great religion does not depend on one's own oppinion, nor his psychological and spiritual position, there is one true religion, and Allah Ta^ala showed us the right way that should be followed, we cant speak according to our oppinion, rather, we speak according to what's mentioned in Qur'an and hadiths, and Ibn taymiyah contradicted that, and he is not excused for what he did, cuz he died without repenting and coming back to Islam.


Imam Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani said:

" he is excused for his mistakes because he is one of the Imaams of his time and it has been witnessed that he fulfilled the conditions of ijtihaad "

It is always better not to speak without sure knowledge. Only Allah (subhanehu wa Ta'alaa) knows about his repentance as you were not a witness between him and when he made his tawba Allah (subhanehu wa Ta'alaa.

Salaam,

Offline Servant of Islam

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Ibn Taymiyah, the devious innovator ...
« Reply #25 on: Saturday 08 February 2003, 00:05 »
Quote from: bronze
Imam Ibn Hajar Al Asqalani said:

" he is excused for his mistakes because he is one of the Imaams of his time and it has been witnessed that he fulfilled the conditions of ijtihaad "
,


Bronze

Ibn Taymiya was a knowledgeble person, the scholars said that he was misgiuded though he had knowledge.

Even with his knowledge, Ibn Taymiya made lots of mistakes, and I'm not talking here about small mistakes, I'm talking about mistakes that lead him to blaspheme, the scholar al-^iraki said that he contradicted the consensus (ijma^) in more then 60 of masa'el, and no one is excused in doing such things, not even Ibn Taymia or any other one.

And about the Ijtihad thing:
- Ibn Taymia had not fulfilled the condiions of ijtihad, he's not even a muslim, and a mujtahid must be Muslim.
 -The mujtahid never belie the onsensus of scholars as Ibn Taymia did.

I don't believe that Imam Ibn Hajar would say such thing about Ibn Taymia if he knew what Ibn Taymiya said, can u mention the source of this?

Quote from: bronze
It is always better not to speak without sure knowledge. Only Allah (subhanehu wa Ta'alaa) knows about his repentance as you were not a witness between him and when he made his tawba Allah (subhanehu wa Ta'alaa.


Ibn Taymia died in the castle were he was prisoned for what he used to say, the Imams of four schools ordered to put him in prison, and he died here because he didn't repent from what he said, if he did, he wouldn't be locked in prison til he dies.

Quote from: bronze
Salaam,


 :wave2

Offline Zahhaad

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« Reply #26 on: Saturday 08 February 2003, 03:20 »
What I seem to remember hearing is that ibn Taymiyah reached the level of a Mujtahid ORIGINALLY, and then apostated from Islam and consequently losing this level of Ijtihaad. Allahu a^lam.

As for Ibn Hajar, then if he knew the serious errors that are found within the books of Ibn Taymiyah, he would never have said "he is excused". Such sayings are merely down to the point of not knowing the full details of the case. Great scholars who lived closer to the era of Ibn Taymiyah such as Taqi-ud-Deen as-Subkiyy, were more explicit about the blasphemous case pertaining to Ibn Taymiyah, so their writings should be sought after if one requires futher clarification.

Besides, the intention of "he is excused" is not that Ibn Taymiyah is excused from believing that the Hell Fire would end, or that the world is without a beginning, and so forth. Ibn Hajar was not aware that Ibn Taymiyah had really said such things. The intended meaning of "he is excused" is in fact just related to one well known issue. That is, that when a Mujtahid makes Ijtihad in a religious matter upon which there is no unanimous agreement, then if he erred he gets one reward and if he came to the truth he gets two rewards. In this sense, if one's Ijtihad did not coincide exactly with what the Prophet came with, then he is not punished for that since he was of the rank to strive to make such a judgment and he acted upon his knowledge and according to the rules of the Religion. But one is not permitted to differ in a matter upon which there is unanimous agreement (Ijma^). In doing so, he is not excused, and on top of that, this is Apostacy from Islam. The words attributed to Ibn Hajar are just pointing towards a basic point. They do not attempt to clear Ibn Taymiyah of responsability from committing blasphemy.

Offline bronze

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Ibn Taymiyah, the devious innovator ...
« Reply #27 on: Saturday 08 February 2003, 08:55 »
Quote from: Servant of Islam
Dear hafida, first i would like to welcome u in TalkaboutIslam :wave2 , the best english forum on the web(Y)
 
And I would like to comment on ur post:
Ibn Tayniyah has his own beliefs , right, it is what he believd in , right again, he saw that this is his path, and he said that this is the right one which is wrong.
In islam, there is a creed to be believed in, one creed for all muslims, the essentials of beliefs are not diffrent between muslims.
Our great religion does not depend on one's own oppinion, nor his psychological and spiritual position, there is one true religion, and Allah Ta^ala showed us the right way that should be followed, we cant speak according to our oppinion, rather, we speak according to what's mentioned in Qur'an and hadiths, and Ibn taymiyah contradicted that, and he is not excused for what he did, cuz he died without repenting and coming back to Islam.



Al-Hafih Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani says:

"he is excused for his mistakes because he is one of the Imaams of his time and it has been witnessed that he fulfilled the conditions of ijtihaad" From Al-Hafih Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani's endorsement of Ibn Nasurideen Ad-Dimashqi As-Sahafi'i's book Radd al-Waafir in defnce of Shaikh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyya.

A believer should speak about and limit himself to what he knows for certainty. Only Allah (subhanehu wa Ta'alaa) knows "he died without repenting" as no one was a witness between Him and Allah (subhanehu wa Ta'alaa) .

Salaam,

Offline bronze

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Ibn Taymiyah, the devious innovator ...
« Reply #28 on: Saturday 08 February 2003, 09:09 »
Quote from: Servant of Islam
Bronze

Ibn Taymiya was a knowledgeble person, the scholars said that he was misgiuded though he had knowledge.

Even with his knowledge, Ibn Taymiya made lots of mistakes, and I'm not talking here about small mistakes, I'm talking about mistakes that lead him to blaspheme, the scholar al-^iraki said that he contradicted the consensus (ijma^) in more then 60 of masa'el, and no one is excused in doing such things, not even Ibn Taymia or any other one.

And about the Ijtihad thing:
- Ibn Taymia had not fulfilled the condiions of ijtihad, he's not even a muslim, and a mujtahid must be Muslim.
 -The mujtahid never belie the onsensus of scholars as Ibn Taymia did.

I don't believe that Imam Ibn Hajar would say such thing about Ibn Taymia if he knew what Ibn Taymiya said, can u mention the source of this?

Bismillah, Alhamdulillah, Wasselaatu Wasselaam , 'Alaa rewsulillah,

Do not be so sure about things that you were not a witness to. As a Muslim, if you take the testimony of Al-Hafidh Al Iraqi and believe it, you shouild believe Al Hafidh Ibn Hajar's Testimony.    

Ibn Taymia died in the castle were he was prisoned for what he used to say, the Imams of four schools ordered to put him in prison, and he died here because he didn't repent from what he said, if he did, he wouldn't be locked in prison til he dies.
 :wave2


When did going to prison and to then die became an evidence to a person's Iman. Imam Ahmad was Imprisoned, Imam Malik was beaten,  Imam Abu Hanifa is said to have died in prison and many Tabi'een were killed by the tyrant rulers of their time.

Here is the testimony of Ibn Hajar which should cover most of your objection. Note that he is quoting from his teachers through Isnaad.

Ibn Hajr al-Asqalaani said, "I read in the handwriting of al-Haafidh Silaah ad-Deen al-Balaa`ee in endorsement of the shaykh of our shaykhs al-Haafidh Bahaa ad-Deen Abdullaah bin Muhammad bin Khaleel: Our shaykh and master an d Imaam in matters that are between Allaah and us, the Shaykh of research (tahqeeq), traversing, with those that followed him, the best way. Possessor of many excellent qualities and radiant proofs that all the nations have acknowledged are beyond enumeration. May Allaah make us benefit from his outstanding knowledge, and make us benefit from him in this life and the hereafter. He is the Shaykh, the Imaam, the Aalim who understands the affairs, the deeply devoted, the ocean (of knowledge), the pole of light, the Imaam of Imaams, the blessing to the Muslim nation, the sign of the scholars, the inheritor of the Prophets, the last of the Mujtahids, unique amongst the scholars of the Religion - Shaikh al-Islam, proof of the scholars, the example for t he creatures, proof for the learned ones, effacer of the innovators, sword of the disputers, ocean of knowledge, beneficial treasure, the interpreter of the Qur`aan, the amazement of the times, unique in this age and others. Indeed Taqi ad-Deen (ibn Taymiyya) is the Imaam of the Muslims, the proof of Allaah against the creation, the joiner of the righteous, the one who is like those who have preceded, the mufti of the sect, helper of the truth, the sign of guidance, the pillar of the Huffaadh, Knight of the meanings of words, cornerstone of the Sharee`ah, originator of new sciences Abu al-Abbaas ibn Taymiyyah."


Salaam,

Offline bronze

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Re: .
« Reply #29 on: Saturday 08 February 2003, 13:32 »
Bismillah, Alhamdulillah,

Zahhaad, Allah (subhanehu wata'alaa) requires us to be just and carefull when we Judge - and ignoring this, to judge based on "What I seem to remember hearing is" is very disturbing. If you disgree with his Aqidah, that is one thing but to invoke apostacy based on hearsay is very dangarous. Allah (subhanehu wa ta'alaa) warns us:

"follow not that whereof thou hast no knowledge. Lo! the HEARING and the sight and the heart of each of these it will be asked." - Surah Al-Isra, 36.

"O ye who believe ! Be ye staunch in justice, witnesses for Allah, even though it be against yourselves or (your) parents or (your) kindred, whether (the case be of) a rich man or a poor man, for Allah is nearer unto both (than ye are) . So follow not passion lest ye lapse ( from truth ) and if ye lapse or fall away, then lo! Allah is ever Informed of what ye do."- Surah An-Nisa' 135.
 
Cotrary to what you believe Al-Hafidh Ibn Hajar is aware of the accusations and mentions them in most of his books including Fath Al Bari; and since he is master of jarh Wa Ta'adeel who  is relied upon, and would not take things lightly (as he is not known for Tasahul) as you assume:

Ibn Hajar said, "those of his stances that were rejected from him were not said by him due to mere whims and desires and neither did he obstinately and deliberately persist in them after the evidence was established against him. Her e are his works overflowing with refutations of those who held to tajseem yet despite this he is a man who makes mistakes and is also correct. So that which he is correct in and that is the majority is to benefited from and Allaahs Mercy should be sought for him due to it, and that which he is incorrect in should not be blindly followed. Indeed he is excused for his mistakes because he is one of the Imaams of his time and it has been witnessed that he fulfilled the conditions of ijtihaad

From the astonishing qualities of this man was that he was the strongest amongst men against the People of Innovation, the Rawaafidah, and the Hululiyyah, and the Ittihaadiyyah, and his works on this are many and famous, and his fata awaa on them cannot be counted, so how the eyes of these innovators must have found joy when they heard those who declared him to be a kaafir! And how delighted they must have been when they saw those who did not declare him to be a kaafir in turn being labelled kaafir! It is obligatory upon the one who has donned the robe of knowledge and possesses intelligence that he consider the words of a man based upon his well-known books or from the tongues of those who are trusted to accurately convey his words then to isolate from all of this what is rejected and warn from them with the intention of giving sincere advice and to praise him for his excellent qualities and for what he was correct in as is the way of the scholars.


If there were no virtues of Shaykh Taqi ad-Deen except for his famous student Shaykh Shams ad-Deen ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah, writer of many works, from which both his opponents and supporters benefited from then this would be a suffic ient indication of his (ibn Taymiyyahs) great position. And how could it be otherwise when the Shaafi`ee Imaams and others, not to speak of the Hanbalees, of his time testified to his prominence in the (Islamic) sciences" - From Al-Hafih Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalani's endorsement of Ibn Nasurideen Ad-Dimashqi As-Sahafi'i's book Radd al-Waafir in defnce of Shaikh Al-Islam Ibn Taymiyya.

As for position of Shaikh Al Islam Taqi-ud-Deen As-Subki who was a contemporary of Shaikh Al Islam Ibn Taymiyah, he can't be used as evidence as it is clear that the disferences based on Madhab disqualifies testimony against one another. This is evident from the statements of the two Masters of Jarh wa Ta'adeel, Al Hafidh Ad-Dhahabi and Al Hafidh Ibn Hajar that the statements of contamporaries against ane another is not accepted, even more so if it is due to enmity or (diffrences in) Madhab, as no ane can be safe from Hasad except whom Allah pretects. [see Mizaan Al I'itidaal V. 1 p. 111; Siyar A'alaam An-Nubala' V. 5 P. 399]

If you need an example of this sectarianism, as-Sakhaawi endorsed the following words about Taajudeen As-Subki, the son of Shaikh Al Islam Taqi-ud-Deen As-Subki, following his statement: "did any of the Hanbalis raise their heads":

"This is from the strangest of things, and the most partisan of attitudes, and this is why the Qaadi of our time, and Shaikh of the madhab al-Izz al-Kanaani wrote under this statement, and likewise Allaah did not raise the heads of the Mu'attila and then he said about Taajudeen As-Subki, 'he is a man having little manners, lack of scholarly integrity, ignorant of Ahl as-Sunnah and their ranks.- " - see al-I'laan bi-Tawbeekh liman Dhamma at-Ta areekh by of as-Sakhaawi.

From my extensive research, no one justified the extreem position taken against Shaikh al Islam Ib Taymiyya, even his opponent, Taajudeen As-Subki, used to pray for Him let alone consider him a Kafir here on TAI:

"Yaghfirullahu Li Ibn Taymiyya Walaa Haramahu Wasilata an-Nabiy sallalhu 'alaihi wasallam" tabaqat As-Sahafi'iya v. 10, p. 149.

Taajudeen As-Subki (rahimahullah) also said that Al Hafidh Abal Hajjaj Al Mizzi did not write in his hand-writing the words (Shaikh Al Islam) except for two: for His father and Ibn Taymiyya" - see Tabaqat As-Shafi'iyah v. 10 page 195.

The overwhelming proof indicates that Shaikh Al Islam Ibn Taymiyah one of the greatest Imams after the Imams of the Madhabs. And the accusations against him are baseless- as summarized by AlHafidh Ibn Kathir:

"He was, may Allaah have mercy upon him, from the greatest of scholars, also from those who err and are correct. However his errors with respect to his correct rulings were like a drop in a huge ocean and they are for given him as is authentically reported by Bukhaaree, when a ruler makes a ruling, and he is correct then he has two rewards, and if he has erred then he has one reward."


If you read Al-Bidaya wa An-Nihaya, Al Hafidh Ibn Kathir makes it clear that when the scholars of his time gathered for a sitting with ibn Taymiyyah to discuss his work Aqueedah al-Hamawiyyah that his replies to their accusations could not be refuted. see al-Bidaayah wan Nihaayah V.14 pages 5, 48 - 50. Here is an excerpt:

"They reconvened on Jum'ah, after the Prayer, on the 8th of the same month (Rajab). Shaikh Safiyudeen al-Hindi was present and he had a long discussion with Shaikh Taqiyudeen Ibn Taymiyya), but he was less than a match (Saqiyatuhu latamat Bahran = his water-wheel hit an ocean). Then they agreed that Shaikh Kamaludeen bin Zamalkani to be the one to litigate him (Ibn Taymiyya) [...] Then the situation ended with the council accepting the Aqeedah (Al-Wasityah). The Shaikh (Ibn Taymiyya) returned to his home glorious and honored."

To provide you a hint that most of the accusations against Shaikh Al Islam Ibn Taymiyah are baseless, here is what Al Hafidh Ibn Kathir says, about Shaikh Al Islam Taqi-ud-Deen As-Subki's accusation related to visiting graves:

" Now look at this distortion of Shaikh al-Islam (Ibn Taymiyya) whose reply does not contain the prohibition of visiting the graves of Prophets and righteous. Rather he mentioned two views about embarking on a journey or setting out specifically for visiting graves. The visiting of graves with out setting out is one issue, setting out specifically for visiting graves is another issue. The Shaikh (Ibn Taymiyya) does not prohibit the visitation that does not involve setting out. In fact he considers it commendable and urges to it. His books (and his writings) on rites and pilgrimage is a proof to that effect. He does not oppose visitation or say, it is a sin, and he did not narrate i'jma' related to its prohibition. And he is not ignorant about the words of the Prophet, sallalahu 'alaihi wasallam: "Visit the graves, it is a reminder of the last day" - see Albidaya wa-annihaya Volume 14, Page 124.

Shaikh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyya's position about Visting of Graves can be verified from his books. The position Imam al-Haramain Al-Juwayni concerning "setting out to visiting graves" is similar to that of Shaikh Al Islam Ibn Taymiyya:

Imam An-Nawawi in Sharh Sahih Muslim says:

" The scholars disagree concerning setting out to other than the three mosques, such as going to the graves of the righteous, to special places which are similar. Shaikh Abu Muhammad Al-Juwayni, one of our companions said, 'it is Haraam' " - See Sharh Sahih Muslim Volume 9, page 106.

But Imam an-Nawawi does not support the above position and prefers Al-Qadi 'Iyad's, 'it is not haraam'.

Salaam,