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Author Topic: Two major issues to consider  (Read 574 times)

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Offline Porter

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Two major issues to consider
« on: Friday 08 April 2011, 08:13 »
Jesus’ 12 disciples were evil
“If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children,
how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask Him!” (Luke 11:13). 
Do you think Jesus specifically chose evil men to be His disciples?

Jesus knew man’s spiritual condition, so He could trust no one
“Now when He was in Jerusalem at the Passover, during the feast, many believed in His
name when they saw the signs which He did. But Jesus did not commit Himself to them,
because He knew all men, and had no need that anyone should tell Him about man,
for He knew what was in man.” (John 2:23-25)
This was months before Jesus departed and the Holy Spirit took His place (John 14:16-26),
at which time born-again Christians (with the Holy Spirit inside them) could be better trusted.


David said that he (and everyone else) are born sinners
“They have together become corrupt; here is none who does good, no, not one.” (Psalm 14:3)
“Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” (Psalm 51:5)
“The wicked are estranged from the womb;
they go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.” (Psalm 58:3)
There are about 20 Scripture verses that teach all humans are born with a sin nature.
Paul just repeats what the older Scriptures say

“As it is written: ‘There is none righteous, no, not one’ ” (Romans 3:10)
“The Scripture has confined all under sin …” (Galatians 3:22)
“… through one man sin entered the world, and death through sin,
and thus death spread to all men, because all sinned …” (Romans 5:12)

For this reason, God considers that no man is suitable for spending eternity with Him.
And this is where God’s grace comes in.
Because of His compassion, mercy, and grace …
God devised a miraculous plan of salvation, and chooses some to go to Heaven.
“Some” is certainly a whole lot better than none, isn’t it?


Who is chosen? And who gets to know God?
There are dozens of verses which explain that God chooses His “elect”.
This is what happens:
1) Father God draws (gives) the elect to Jesus
“All that the Father gives to Me will come to Me” (John 6:37)
“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him” (John 6:44)
“Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me” (John 6:45)
“No one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father” (John 6:65)
2) Jesus reveals Father God to the elect
“I thank You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things
(spiritual truths, the gospel, etc.) from those who think they are wise,
but have revealed them to the humble and simple.
Even so, Father, for so it seemed good in Your sight.
All things have been delivered to Me by My Father,
and no one knows who the Son is except the Father,
and no one knows who the Father is except the Son,
and the one to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.” (Luke 10:21-22)
”And I will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever — the Spirit of truth … you know Him,
for He dwells with you and will be in you … and We (God) will come
to him (the believer) and make Our home with him.” (John 14:16-23)
The Greek word here for ”another” is ”allos” meaning ”another of the same kind”.

God laughs at those who think they are so wise
“Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? … it pleased God through
the foolishness of the message (gospel) preached to save those who believe.
… not many wise according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise …” (1 Corinthians 1:20-27)

Offline The Full Moon

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Re: Two major issues to consider
« Reply #1 on: Thursday 21 April 2011, 16:05 »
Mr. Poter

1- Do you think Jesus specifically chose evil men to be His disciples?

God sends his messengers to show all people the right path, and then they chose to follow it or not. If they were only send to the people who are going to be good then who is going to straight the bad people?
People might start as good and then turn bad and the opposite is true too, because people change, that is one facts of life

2- This was months before Jesus departed and the Holy Spirit took His place (John 14:16-26),at which time born-again Christians (with the Holy Spirit inside them) could be better trusted.

This is so not right, a man will not change to be an angle and an angle will not become a man and God is neither, because God created human and angles and he did not create himself. The one who is created is in need to someone who specified him with his abilities and form and so on.. The one who is in need can not be God.

3. There are about 20 Scripture verses that teach all humans are born with a sin nature.
Humans are born with abilities to chose to be good or bad, and because of these choices they are accountable.

God is the one who grants people the wisdom to follow the right path and he showed them the temptations of this life so people who want it will follow this desires and therefore will do anything to fulfill them and will not stop at the limits God had set for them.






Offline Porter

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Re: Two major issues to consider
« Reply #2 on: Sunday 24 April 2011, 13:42 »
This was months before Jesus departed and the Holy Spirit took His place (John 14:16-26),
at which time born-again Christians (with the Holy Spirit inside them) could be better trusted.

To understand these verses, one needs to understand the Triune God.
One God in Three Persons.
God the Father = God the Son = God the Holy Spirit

Jesus, God the Son, is talking here ...

John 14:
16 And I will pray (to) the Father, and He will give you another Helper,
that He may abide with you forever
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him
nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.
23 … and We (God) will come to him and make Our home with him.
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name,
He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

The Greek word here for ”another” is ”allos” meaning ”another of the same kind”.

Offline The Full Moon

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Re: Two major issues to consider
« Reply #3 on: Sunday 24 April 2011, 17:27 »
How one can be two or two can be one or three can be one or two?

My answer to you is: God does not need any of his creation

Jesus needed to sleep, so he is not God
Jesus was born, he had a mother . so he did not exist before he was born.
 God is eternal, and  Jesus is not God.
 Jesus needed cloth.. food .. water... air... the one who needs can not be a God.

We Muslim Love God , Jesus , Muhammad and all the prophets... and no where in the bible Jesus ever said I am GOD.

So I am more a believer and follower of Jesus than you are.

Offline Porter

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Re: Two major issues to consider
« Reply #4 on: Sunday 15 May 2011, 17:09 »
How one can be two or two can be one or three can be one or two?
My answer to you is: God does not need any of his creation
Jesus needed to sleep, so he is not God
Jesus was born, he had a mother . so he did not exist before he was born.
 God is eternal, and  Jesus is not God.
 Jesus needed cloth.. food .. water... air... the one who needs can not be a God.
We Muslim Love God , Jesus , Muhammad and all the prophets...
and no where in the bible Jesus ever said I am GOD.
So I am more a believer and follower of Jesus than you are.
I'm sorry, but you just do not understand what the Bible teaches.
When "the Son of God" (name/title only) was on earth, he was a man called Jesus Christ
(but when He is in heaven, He is Spirit).
He was miraculously born of a virgin, so he was not conceived via man's sperm.
Not only that, but he had the Spirit of God inside him (this is the God part).
For these reasons, he was able to live a sinless life.
I personally do NOT believe he was "fully God, fully man".
Of course, Jesus could have yelled all day long, "I am God", but chose not to.
However, he hinted at it ... in many verses.
The explanation is a whole other topic, but I will elaborate if asked to.

Offline The Full Moon

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Re: Two major issues to consider
« Reply #5 on: Monday 16 May 2011, 11:30 »
 Sir

If you are sorry that I do not understand what the bible says, I am more sorry that you do not understand it either.
God has no son and he never said that Jesus is his son, nor Jesus said that he is son of God or God on earth.
Jesus was never conceived through man's sperm.. you know why because God almighty can do anything..
Adam was created from no sperm and from no mother.

As when you say that he hinted, why.. according to you he left such an important thing for our imagination when we are so limited and may interpret things differently?

God and Jesus made it very clear that God is God and Jesus is but human. Read the Quran translation and it does states that Jesus denies saying to people that he is God. And we believe in the Quran because there is but one of it in, but your bibles are so many and each is different therefore, unfortunately neither one of us cannot tell which one is the true Bible.

May God lead you to the right path.




Offline Porter

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Re: Two major issues to consider
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 17 May 2011, 09:25 »
God has no son and he never said that Jesus is his son, nor Jesus said that he is son of God or God on earth.
Jesus was never conceived through man's sperm.. you know why because God almighty can do anything..
Adam was created from no sperm and from no mother.
As when you say that he hinted, why.. according to you he left such an important thing for our imagination when we are so limited and may interpret things differently?
God and Jesus made it very clear that God is God and Jesus is but human. Read the Quran translation and it does states that Jesus denies saying to people that he is God. And we believe in the Quran because there is but one of it in, but your bibles are so many and each is different therefore, unfortunately neither one of us cannot tell which one is the true Bible.

Matthew 3:
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water;
and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God
descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

John 5:
18 Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath,
but also (Jesus) said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.
19 Then Jesus answered and said to them,
"Most assuredly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, but what He sees the Father do;
for whatever He does, the Son also does in like manner.
20 For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself does;
and He will show Him greater works than these, that you may marvel.
21 For as the Father raises the dead and gives life to them, even so the Son gives life to whom He will.
22 For the Father judges no one, but has committed all judgment to the Son,
23 that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father.
He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

May I emphasize that "Son of God" is a name/title only ... no one believes that God had any offspring.

Also, Jesus in the NT has many of the same names/titles as does God in the OT:
Lord - Lord of hosts - Lord of glory - Savior - Redeemer - I AM -
Rock - King - First and Last - Alpha and Omega - Beginning and End

Offline Porter

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Re: Two major issues to consider
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 17 May 2011, 09:32 »
Forgot to mention that ...

ALL Bibles (except for the sects) have ALL of God's major important doctrines.

Words, phrases, clauses, sentences, books, etc. missing or added have no effect on the rest of Scripture.
(E.G. Words missing from a particular place in Scripture are found in another place.)
You are invited to try and prove me wrong.

Offline The Full Moon

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Re: Two major issues to consider
« Reply #8 on: Wednesday 18 May 2011, 09:49 »
Sir

So according to you, it is the idea  that matters not the exact words..!!! How do I know that these men remembered and recalled the ideas and words and scripts the way Jesus meant for them?

I am so proud to say that the ideas, words and each letters in the Quran are exactly the way (God) Allah put them for us.

So, we our message is stronger, because it was not depleted by humans interpretations and understandings.

Thank you for pointing that out


Offline Porter

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Re: Two major issues to consider
« Reply #9 on: Saturday 21 May 2011, 09:55 »
So according to you, it is the idea that matters not the exact words..!!!
How do I know that these men remembered and recalled the ideas and words and scripts the way Jesus meant for them?
I am so proud to say that the ideas, words and each letters in the Quran are exactly the way (God) Allah put them for us.
So, we our message is stronger, because it was not depleted by humans interpretations and understandings.
Thank you for pointing that out

Thank you for reiterating what I already know ... Muslims do NOT believe that Almighty God is almighty.

Yes, they must believe that He operates thusly ...
"I'll orchestrate thousands of years of man's history in order to have My Scriptures written,
but if Satan and man mess things up real bad, so be it, I have failed. Woe is Me, I have wasted My time."


If Almighty God gives information to a man, and intends for him to write it down for posterity,
don't you think that Almighty God is almighty enough to cause this to happen satisfactorily?

Beyond all of this obvious logic ...
IF I believed that the Quran actually came from the God of the Bible, I would tend to agree with you.

However, there are many proofs that Allah is NOT the God of the Bible.
And I have presented them on your forum previously.
Thank you for your time and attention.

 



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