Topic: Discussion between a Christian and a Muslim

[k_illuminati]

First off let me say, May God bless you as well and give you peace:
"And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, shall
keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." -Philippians 4:7

I would like to say that I am not here to argue or discriminate in any way. I am simply a fellow seeker of truth. If anything I say makes anyone angry I can assure you it is not my intention to do so for the sake of hatred, but for the sake of my integrity to my own conscious and my desire to know the truth. I am a Christian, however I do not wish to be looked upon as an outsider or a intruder with any sort of secret agenda. I express all my thoughts openly. I am simply another human being here on this earth.

....This is my interpretation of the 3rd and 4th verses of the 13th chapter of book of Revelations from the Holy Bible:

I believe The Turkish/Ottoman empire will rise up once again and Islam will become the predominating religion of the world.

Revelations 13, v3:“And I saw one of his heads-(the Ottoman empire) as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast  [v4] And they worshipped the dragon-(anti-Christ) which gave power unto the beast and they worshiped the beast, saying, Who [is] like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?”


Revelations 17, v10:  "And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space."

At the time of John five empires had already fallen:

1 - Egyptian Empire which persecuted the people of Israel during the time of the Exodus

2 - Assyrian Empire which took the Northern kingdom of Israel into captivity

3 - Babylonian Empire which took the Southern kingdom of Judah into captivity

4 - Persian Empire which almost destroyed the Jews through Haman

5 - The Grecian Empire which desecrated the Jewish Temple through the Seleucid king Antiochus Epiphanes

These are the five kings or kingdoms that had fallen by John's time.

6 - The Roman Empire which destroyed Jerusalem and scattered the Jews in A.D. 70

This is the king or kingdom that ''was’'' when John was receiving the vision of Revelation 17.

The Roman empire fell in 1453 AD to the Turks.
7 - The Turkish/ Ottoman Empire is the seventh empire who ruled over the entire middle east (including Jerusalem) for nearly 500 years right up until 1909 and is the wounded head of the caliphate and is soon to be revived.

 The Turkish Empire was the seat of the Islamic caliphate. I was not until 1923 that the caliphate was completely abolished. Today the Islamic world awaits the restoration of the caliphate.  The Bible teaches that someday soon the Turkish empire will be revived.  At that time we may see the Islamic caliphate restored and eventually a man might rise to this position whom the Muslim world would refer to as the Mahdi, but whom people of understanding would identify as the man known Biblically as the anti-Christ.

The wounded head of revelations is Islam and the caliphate of the Ottoman/Turkish empire which will give birth to the anti-Christ (The Mahdi) who will head the caliphate. The next pope or "the black pope" will play a role in the great "falling away" in Christianity and will convince people to be converted to the "true religion" of Islam after the false Christ of Islam returns claiming to be the one "true" Christ and performing many great miracles and uncovering many "hidden secrets" (The Ark, Grail, or other historical and/or other possible archeological artifacts many of which are hidden in the Vatican archives) Not the Christ we know of in Christianity, not our savior, but simply a prophet. Like the Bible clearly states: "If possible even the very elect would be deceived"

Would like to hear a Muslim's interpretation on this.

[The Full Moon]

First off let me say, May God bless you as well and give you peace:
"And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, shall
keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." -Philippians 4:7

I would like to say that I am not here to argue or discriminate in any way. I am simply a fellow seeker of truth. If anything I say makes anyone angry I can assure you it is not my intention to do so for the sake of hatred, but for the sake of my integrity to my own conscious and my desire to know the truth. I am a Christian, however I do not wish to be looked upon as an outsider or a intruder with any sort of secret agenda. I express all my thoughts openly. I am simply another human being here on this earth.

Dear k_illuminati

Thank you for being so considerate and I would like to assure you that we welcome your thoughts and interpretations and hope we will be able to guide each others to the truth that All Mighty God gave us guidance to reach using logic and his messages through his holy books and rules to his prophets and messengers.

The wounded head of revelations is Islam and the caliphate of the Ottoman/Turkish empire which will give birth to the anti-Christ (The Mahdi) who will head the caliphate. The next pope or "the black pope" will play a role in the great "falling away" in Christianity and will convince people to be converted to the "true religion" of Islam after the false Christ of Islam returns claiming to be the one "true" Christ and performing many great miracles and uncovering many "hidden secrets" (The Ark, Grail, or other historical and/or other possible archeological artifacts many of which are hidden in the Vatican archives) Not the Christ we know of in Christianity, not our savior, but simply a prophet. Like the Bible clearly states: "If possible even the very elect would be deceived"

Would like to hear a Muslim's interpretation on this.

I read what you wrote- but in my view- you had too many thoughts put together which at the end had a question but not to a specific issue (or that how I understood it, sorry).

Let us discuss one subject at a time and I hope we will be able to share the information that we both have gained by studying our holy book.

One thing I would like to make it clear from the beginning that:
" We do not know what or how things are going to comedown in the future... but we receive few hints about them"

 So we will discuss these issues from this point of view and what and how much we know of them.

Hope you will remain in this forum and you will accept my invitation to discuss these matters.
Looking forward to hearing from you.

Best regards
 

[k_illuminati]

First off let me say, May God bless you as well and give you peace:
"And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, shall
keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus." -Philippians 4:7

I would like to say that I am not here to argue or discriminate in any way. I am simply a fellow seeker of truth. If anything I say makes anyone angry I can assure you it is not my intention to do so for the sake of hatred, but for the sake of my integrity to my own conscious and my desire to know the truth. I am a Christian, however I do not wish to be looked upon as an outsider or a intruder with any sort of secret agenda. I express all my thoughts openly. I am simply another human being here on this earth.

Dear k_illuminati

Thank you for being so considerate and I would like to assure you that we welcome your thoughts and interpretations and hope we will be able to guide each others to the truth that All Mighty God gave us guidance to reach using logic and his messages through his holy books and rules to his prophets and messengers.

The wounded head of revelations is Islam and the caliphate of the Ottoman/Turkish empire which will give birth to the anti-Christ (The Mahdi) who will head the caliphate. The next pope or "the black pope" will play a role in the great "falling away" in Christianity and will convince people to be converted to the "true religion" of Islam after the false Christ of Islam returns claiming to be the one "true" Christ and performing many great miracles and uncovering many "hidden secrets" (The Ark, Grail, or other historical and/or other possible archeological artifacts many of which are hidden in the Vatican archives) Not the Christ we know of in Christianity, not our savior, but simply a prophet. Like the Bible clearly states: "If possible even the very elect would be deceived"

Would like to hear a Muslim's interpretation on this.

I read what you wrote- but in my view- you had too many thoughts put together which at the end had a question but not to a specific issue (or that how I understood it, sorry).

Let us discuss one subject at a time and I hope we will be able to share the information that we both have gained by studying our holy book.

One thing I would like to make it clear from the beginning that:
" We do not know what or how things are going to comedown in the future... but we receive few hints about them"

 So we will discuss these issues from this point of view and what and how much we know of them.

Hope you will remain in this forum and you will accept my invitation to discuss these matters.
Looking forward to hearing from you.

Best regards
 

Let me get right into it. Also let me restate that I speak openly and anything said here that may offend anyone I am sorry, but I call it how I see it and don't have time to sugar coat it. I find if we are able to have open and honest conversations than we will get much closer to the truth than we will trying to be "politcally correct" I do however believe in civil discussions and in no way intend to be anything other than civil.

I believe the anti-Christ will come from Islam and the evidence is beyond circumstantial. More than just their eschatology being the opposite of Christianity, Biblical geography points to the Antichrist kingdom of that of the surrounding nations of Israel and not of a Roman Empire or revived Roman Empire. The Antichrist theology also matches with Islam. Islam’s creed, the shahada is the most Antichrist creed that has ever existed.

Even from it's beginnings you get the feeling that the God that we know according to the Gospels of the Biblical New Testament as well as the Old Testament would of had nothing to do with the revelation of Muhammad which too place in the Hira cave. The story goes that the angel that we know in Christian faith as Gabriel came to Muhammad, and squeezed him within an inch of his life and commanded him to "recite" to which he responded he could not (he in fact could not read or write), the "angel" squeezed him again and he responded the same. This routine was repeated one more time to which Muhammad finally "submits." He then runs from the cave frantically in fear he is either mad or worse possessed.

We of the Christian faith know that every time a prophet was visited by an angel in the Bible they are always greeted with peace, saying "be not afraid the lord is with you." Or something to that extent. This raises a very important question as to who exactly visited Muhammad in the cave.

Have all those countless billions of souls who have followed the Qur'an been deceived by a demon or the devil himself pretending to be God?

Muhammad himself was convinced that the "revelations" he received in the Hira Cave were evil, and from a demon (Jinn).    Muhammad's constant fits, foaming at the mouth and other manifestations certainly fit in with that idea. This is how demon possessed people are known to behave today, as they did in both the times of Jesus and Muhammad. The Hebrew prophets, and Jesus Christ never behaved like this. But all over the world where demons are listened to, you will find this kind of behavior. 

What troubles me is that the belief of Islam regarding Islamic end times prophecy is the same story just the reverse to that of the Bible. The person that the Christians as well as the Jews would call the one true messiah, Muslims would call the Dajjal and  the Islamic version of Yeshua (Jesus) would be considered the false prophet by the Christians.  and the one the muslims would call the Mahdi would be considered in the christian world to be the Anti-Christ. They are both a kind of mirror image of one another regarding the end times.           
It’s my belief that Satan knows God’s plan and has had a long time to study it and theology throughout the ages. So Satan has his own plan and part of that plan is to build an army and the primary method for that army is Islam.

There is no other mainstream religion that I know of that is so inherently evil. At this point I would like to point out that I am not bashing Muslims in any way. I know that every Muslim is NOT evil, but the Quran speaks for itself when it says:

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)- Surah 9:5

Also surah's 8:39; 9:5; 9:29: 47:4 in the Muslim Qur'an are all 'divine' commandments to persecute Jews and Christians, to defeat them in battle and then to consign them either to slavery or to death.

A prayer by Sheik Ahmad Bahr on April 27, 2007, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, declared during a Friday sermon at a Sudan mosque that America and Israel will be annihilated and called upon Allah to kill Jews and Americans "to the very Last One".

"Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one. Oh Allah, show them a day of darkness. Oh Allah, who sent down His Book, the mover of the clouds, who defeated the enemies of the Prophet defeat the Jews and the Americans, and bring us victory over them."

Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " HADITH Sahih Bukhari [4:52:176]

ISLAM, LIKE SATAN - WANTS ONLY SLAVES. The love of God is something that you don't find strongly associated associated with Islam. That is one of the main differences between Christians and Muslims. Whereas evil’s strength lies in its ability to intimidate, which is a theme that is tied strongly with Islam and the god of Islam called Allah. The love of God is something foreign. The God of my understanding is a loving God and is to be feared, but the main message behind the New Testament is the love of God. We know that He is all powerful, but he invokes not our fears but simply wants us to love him and if you love him you will keep his commandments. Where love is

"There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love."-1 John 4:18

“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have ever-lasting life life." John 3:16

Some do not want to believe the crucifixion on the ground that God would not have allowed His chosen prophet like Jesus to be killed by wicked hands. Heres what the Bible states:

"Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also Himself [Jesus] likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that hath the power of death, that is the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their life time subject to bondage" (Hebrews 2:14, 15).

This was the sole mission of Christ and He accomplished it, praise God. Contrary to Muslim allegations, neither Christ nor Paul established a religion. Religion is Satan's dragnet to catch men into Hell-fire, while Christ came purposely to conquer Satan and deliver as many as put their trust in Him. Does the Koran inform us of how Allah defeated Satan? No, on the contrary, Allah even incorporates Satan's cohorts (the jinns demons) into the Islamic fold (Surah 72:14), and concentrates on fighting against the Salvation plan of the Bible God.

[The Full Moon]

Let me get right into it. Also let me restate that I speak openly and anything said here that may offend anyone I am sorry, but I call it how I see it and don't have time to sugar coat it. I find if we are able to have open and honest conversations than we will get much closer to the truth than we will trying to be "politcally correct" I do however believe in civil discussions and in no way intend to be anything other than civil.

We agree on open and honest and civil conversations. I will try not sugar coat it, but I have my reservations that sometimes few statements might will be taken as hateful.
I will try to remember that its not at all your intention or mine.

I believe the anti-Christ will come from Islam and the evidence is beyond circumstantial. More than just their eschatology being the opposite of Christianity, Biblical geography points to the Antichrist kingdom of that of the surrounding nations of Israel and not of a Roman Empire or revived Roman Empire. The Antichrist theology also matches with Islam. Islam’s creed, the shahada is the most Antichrist creed that has ever existed.

 What you or I might believe or think cannot be taken as evidence in a religion subject. And circumstantial evidences is not reliable ones either.

Fact : To be a Muslim we have to love, respect, believe in everything Prophet Issa (Christ) said or came with and cherish Christ or we are none Muslims. This is obligatory for every Muslim to believe in and that is our creed.

How can you say that Muslims are Antichrist and how can you claim that the shahada is the most Antichrist creed that has ever existed, where is your proof??

----------

As for your conclusion that he will come out from a Muslim country... I checked the bible studies and there is no such proof of that.
but what I found:
" He comes from among ten kings in the restored Roman Empire; his authority will have similarities to the ancient Babylonians, Persians, and Greeks [Daniel 7:24; Rev 13:2 / Daniel 7:7]"


 As in Islam: we call antichrist (aDdajal)

Antichrist will appear from east , specifically in the Khorasan province.
 The proof of the Hadith of the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him
((Out of the land which is called Khorasan).
Khorasan and include areas passed, and Balkh, and HRH, and Nishapur.

The area of the Antichrist and will come out of it (Murrow) another proof of the Hadith of the Messenger of God Peace be upon him ((Antichrist is Jewish, come out from Murrow)).

more to come .......

Allah knows best and may He forgive me if I have misspoken.

[The Full Moon]

you said:

1- Even from it's beginnings you get the feeling that
2-  the God that we know according to the Gospels of the Biblical New Testament as well as the Old Testament would of had nothing to do with the revelation of Muhammad which too place in the Hira cave. The story goes that the angel that we know in Christian faith as Gabriel came to Muhammad,

3- and squeezed him within an inch of his life and commanded him to "recite" to which he responded he could not (he in fact could not read or write), the "angel" squeezed him again and he responded the same.

4- This routine was repeated one more time to which Muhammad finally "submits." He then runs from the cave frantically in fear he is either mad or worse possessed.

5- We of the Christian faith know that every time a prophet was visited by an angel in the Bible they are always greeted with peace, saying "be not afraid the lord is with you." Or something to that extent. This raises a very important question as to who exactly visited Muhammad in the cave.

6- Have all those countless billions of souls who have followed the Qur'an been deceived by a demon or the devil himself pretending to be God?

7- Muhammad himself was convinced that the "revelations" he received in the Hira Cave were evil, and from a demon (Jinn).    Muhammad's constant fits, foaming at the mouth and other manifestations certainly fit in with that idea. This is how demon possessed people are known to behave today, as they did in both the times of Jesus and Muhammad. The Hebrew prophets, and Jesus Christ never behaved like this. But all over the world where demons are listened to, you will find this kind of behavior. 

Fist Only Allah knows everything , but I will try to explain to the best of my ability.

Again......
 1- ” you get the feeling the God that we know……”

Sorry, I cannot debate your feeling s…..as you cannot debate mine. Same as for each of others interpretations of what is in the bible which I read (the new testaments).

2- God (Allah) what we know of him (the creator) is what he allowed us to know and considering our mind limitation which he created and knows better than us (the creation).

==========

3- God told us in the Quran that all prophets were humans. And when Angel Gabriel when he appeared to Lady Mary she was scared of him, she was fearful for his unexpected appearance and his size.
Our prophet did not anticipate that being in a far away cave someone will appear and reveal to him the unknown to him. So, his reaction was very normal for a human being.
And I might add here that Prophet Muhammad worries were only on the first meeting, and he was not confused or fearful or angry, but he was sure,  had no doubt of his mission and revelation and the angle who was sent to him by Allah for 23 years.

As that where you mentioned that he :" squeezed him within an inch of his life"
According to our reliable stories that the angle covered him with his wings (like in a huge)..

I would like to know form you if a big person in the street turned around and hugged you, will you be taken  back and almost out of breath? I will not find that strange at all, will you?

5- During of the years Prophet Muhammad received the revelations, there were a period of time when the revelation stopped then returned and Prophet Muhammad missed the angle, because although some visits where hard on his being but he was willing to take whatever God puts him through because he accept what Allah the merciful willed for him.
Many other times the angle use to come and sit with him as one of his companions and he use to reveal and lots of time console him.

Unfortunately, during the time of Prophet Issa no one narrated to us how hard or easy was the revelation on him.
Do you know?

Muhammad finally "submits." He then runs from the cave frantically in fear he is either mad or worse possessed.

Actually, Muhammad peace be upon him, repeated the recitation from the Quran that was revealed to him by Angle Gabriel. And he was not frantically in fear (this is an exaggeration for sure), he received the revelation for 23 years and he received and and reveal it in peace and passion and patience... that is not a behavior of a frantic man for sure.

--------------------

Even when our Lady Mary got pregnant she feared what people will think of her the untouched by a human being pregnant. Prophet Muhammad was uncertain of what was revealed to him Allah willed for both reactions to be the same as humans).

Then our Lady Mary had Prophet Issa (Christ) and she did not know how she will be perceived, same reaction by our Prophet Muhammad.

============

6- Muslims are following the orders of Allah, Allah ordered people to follow his prophets. Muslims are obeying Allah's orders. Christian and refusing to do so, and this was mentioned in the original Bible and the Torah. We are very anxious for the return of Christ who will reveal the truth and no one will be able to hide it any longer.

7- How do you know how Prophet Muhammad felt and thought? You believe a person who interpreted his behavior who never took time to his whole story, otherwise no one will defame him by saying what you claimed :
"Muhammad's constant fits, foaming at the mouth and other manifestations certainly fit in with that idea".

He was so gentle so forgiving so merciful, trustworthy, brave, honest,.... he was the greatest and the best of Allah's creation. still we honor him but we do not worship him.

Prophet  Moses peace be upon him hit a Jew and killed him with one fist, he did not mean to kill him we definite about that. He left Egypt because he feared how the Pharaoh is going to react to his action.

Prophet Muhammad never hit people who wished him a bodily harm hurt or by calling him names.
All his battles were to spread or defend Islam from its enemies who wished to eliminate Islam.

Allow me tell you a story about Prophet Muhammad: One time he went to Ttaif to call its people to Islam and  his enemies sent their kids to stoned him and he was bleeding angle Gabriel asked him if he would ask god to punish them. Prophet Muhammad refused. you know why?  because God might have Muslims from their offspring's.

I invite you to read Prophet Muhammad story.. I assure you that you cannot help yourself by fall in love with him and want to obey Our lord more sincerely and strongly.


More to come .....

Allah knows best and may He forgive me if I have misspoken.

[The Full Moon]

you said:

What troubles me is that the belief of Islam regarding Islamic end times prophecy is the same story just the reverse to that of the Bible. The person that the Christians as well as the Jews would call the one true messiah, Muslims would call the Dajjal and  the Islamic version of Yeshua (Jesus) would be considered the false prophet by the Christians.  and the one the muslims would call the Mahdi would be considered in the christian world to be the Anti-Christ. They are both a kind of mirror image of one another regarding the end times.           

In the name of Allah the Most Merciful

Muslims believe that the stories of the end of time are simillar in the Holly books (Tourah, Bible, Quran) and that is no surprise because they came from the same source.

But let me correct few mistakes (they seemed too jumbled to me):

1- Muslims believe that a Pious Muslim (alMahdi) will come and unite the Muslims under his leadership and that person's name will be similar to our Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him : Muhammad the son of Abdullah.

2- ADdajjal will appear and he will have extraordinary power that Allah bestowed upon him to test the believer from the none believer and he will convince a lot of people that he is the almighty and deserve to be worshiped and claim lordship.
We have been warned about him, and one of the hadith states that God told all prophets to warn their people of the appearance of antichrist and not to fall victims to his lies and follow or worship him.
 One obvious physical sign that he is the Antichrist that he is one eyed.(the other eye is flat-blind).

3- Prophet Issa (Jesus) peace be upon him will return to earth, and all Muslims and Christian will follow him and they will be under his leadership. He will kill the Antichrist.

Is it clear now?

More to come .....

Allah knows best and may He forgive me if I have misspoken.

[k_illuminati]

you said:

What troubles me is that the belief of Islam regarding Islamic end times prophecy is the same story just the reverse to that of the Bible. The person that the Christians as well as the Jews would call the one true messiah, Muslims would call the Dajjal and  the Islamic version of Yeshua (Jesus) would be considered the false prophet by the Christians.  and the one the muslims would call the Mahdi would be considered in the christian world to be the Anti-Christ. They are both a kind of mirror image of one another regarding the end times.           

In the name of Allah the Most Merciful

Muslims believe that the stories of the end of time are simillar in the Holly books (Tourah, Bible, Quran) and that is no surprise because they came from the same source.

But let me correct few mistakes (they seemed too jumbled to me):

1- Muslims believe that a Pious Muslim (alMahdi) will come and unite the Muslims under his leadership and that person's name will be similar to our Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him : Muhammad the son of Abdullah.

2- ADdajjal will appear and he will have extraordinary power that Allah bestowed upon him to test the believer from the none believer and he will convince a lot of people that he is the almighty and deserve to be worshiped and claim lordship.
We have been warned about him, and one of the hadith states that God told all prophets to warn their people of the appearance of antichrist and not to fall victims to his lies and follow or worship him.
 One obvious physical sign that he is the Antichrist that he is one eyed.(the other eye is flat-blind).

3- Prophet Issa (Jesus) peace be upon him will return to earth, and all Muslims and Christian will follow him and they will be under his leadership. He will kill the Antichrist.

Is it clear now?

More to come .....

Allah knows best and may He forgive me if I have misspoken.

We agree on open and honest and civil conversations. I will try not sugar coat it, but I have my reservations that sometimes few statements might will be taken as hateful.
I will try to remember that its not at all your intention or mine.

Most definitely and if I ever come off in that manner please let me know. I know that this can be a sensitive subject, however I will never take offense to  an honest opinion as I hope you will not take offense to mine. We are both on a journey and I am glad to finally find someone with which I can converse who is actually a Muslim and can give me insight into what it is that they really believe and I will also tell you my beliefs so that we may both learn from one another.

1. I understand that the almahdi will be a descendant of Muhammad, is this correct?  He will unite the people of Islam and will lead the nations of the middle east to war against the Christians and the Jews, is this correct? If so how can you follow teachings that preach violence against other human beings? God loves ALL human beings regardless of whether they are a Muslim, Jew, Christian, Buddhist, Pagan... it doesn't matter whether your black, white, brown or any other color. Jehovah's love is universal. He may not agree with their practices or beliefs, but they are all His creation and his love is eternal. Does Allah emphasize punishment over love or love over punishment? This is fundamental to understanding who God really is. He gives man freewill to either accept or reject Him. Those who reject Him will be separated from his love and his law.

"For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;" Romans 2:12

2. The ADdajjal, who is the Antichrist according to Islam will have one eye. This is interesting to me because that is one thing that does not come up in Biblical prophecy. This is speculative for me at this point. When does the Quran say the DAdajjal will appear, does it give any kind of specific period of time?

3. The Jesus of Christianity (Who Muslims call the DAdajjal or the "false Christ") is to come back at the end of the seven year tribulation and is also prophesied to kill the Antichrist and his armies and cast them into the lake of fire. So if the DAdajjal is going to come to tempt the Muslim's before the end of the world as we know it that would not make sense because the True Jesus is not to return until after the end of the 7 year reign of the Antichrist according to the Holy Bible. So the DAdajjal cannot be the Christ of Christianity and the the Christ of Christianity cannot be the true Antichrist.

...To be continued

[k_illuminati]

Fact : To be a Muslim we have to love, respect, believe in everything Prophet Issa (Christ) said or came with and cherish Christ or we are none Muslims. This is obligatory for every Muslim to believe in and that is our creed.

Jesus was more than just a prophet and 90% (guesstimate) of the prophecies from the Old Testament were fulfilled according to both Jews and Christians.
I would say that the points which are in question have not been empirically proven on either side although both would argue in their own favor (ex: Jesus not being a descendant of David, however some believe Mary to be a descendant, not only Joseph) and the rest of them have to be fulfilled at his second coming (peace on earth ect..)  Because the Jews were focused on and wanted a Messiah who would liberate them from the domination of the foreign Roman rulers, they ignored the significance of the prophesies concerning a Messiah who would have to suffer and die (Isaiah 53). They didn’t know that the suffering servant had to come before the conquering king in order to be a final sacrifice for sin.

How can you say that Muslims are Antichrist and how can you claim that the shahada is the most Antichrist creed that has ever existed, where is your proof??

I never said Muslim's were Antichrists I said that the Bible seems to be pointing out that the Antichrist will come from Islam just as Islam says Jesus is not the savior of man and that any man claiming to that status is the "Antichrist" Well that's the Jesus of Christianity so your faith accuses our belief of being the vehicle for the Antichrist just the same. That's why I am so desperately trying to find out who is right and who is wrong. The Quran was written from the time period of 610 C.E to 632 C.E

The original texts of the New testament were written by their respective authors beginning around A.D. 50 by the people who actually lived and knew Jesus. The Gospels (good news) of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John give a written account of his life, teachings, miracles and their belief in his divine identity . I tend to believe what was said about him by those who actually knew and lived with him more than I do from a book that wasn't written until over 600 years after his death.

It’s my belief that Satan knows God’s plan and has had a long time to study it and theology throughout the ages. So Satan has his own plan and part of that plan is to build an army and the primary method for that army is Islam. The Bible doesn't teach to kill Muslims or Jews or anyone else. Whereas the Quran teaches and promotes the killing of Jews and Christians. Why is that?

As far as the shahada, for a Muslim it is not considered Antichrist because the believe Jesus to be a mere prophet, but to a christian it is for the simple fact that the doctrine of Islam is diametrically opposed to that of Christianity and Jesus Christ the son of God. Let me state that Christianity is not Polytheistic. We worship one God and one God alone. Even Jesus said that you were not to pray to him, but to t he father. You may pray in Jesus name because he is the redeemer just as the Holy Spirit sanctifies and The Father creates. Trinitarianism is monotheistic by definition and those who claim it is polytheistic demonstrate a lack of understanding of what it really is.

As for your conclusion that he will come out from a Muslim country... I checked the bible studies and there is no such proof of that.
but what I found:
" He comes from among ten kings in the restored Roman Empire; his authority will have similarities to the ancient Babylonians, Persians, and Greeks [Daniel 7:24; Rev 13:2 / Daniel 7:7]"

This is a common misconception among many people. I originally believed this until I started doing my own research.
This deception is from a sentence in Daniel 9:26 which says, “The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary.”

One subject of Daniel 9:26  is "the people", the other is "the ruler who will come".

The people will be of the same people as the ruler who will come. This means the people and the ruler will be of the same national origin. If the people are Greek then the leader in question will be Greek. So, when we know the national origin of the people we will also know the national origin of the leader.

Part of this prophecy was fulfilled in 70 A.D. when the Roman army destroyed Jerusalem and the Jewish sanctuary.  According Josephus, the people that destroyed the sanctuary were predominately Syrian.

Some people have incorrectly assumed that, because it was a Roman army, the people who destroyed the city and the sanctuary were Romans.  However, it was customary for Rome to conscript soldiers from territories they had conquered.  In this campaign the Roman troops were predominately Syrians.

Therefore, the ruler who will come will be of Syrian origin.  Syria, at that time, included some of the territory of present day Syria, Lebanon and Turkey.

The ruler who will come is the Antichrist which is confirmed in Daniel 9:27. Daniel identifies the ruler who will come this way:

    “He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' (seven year peace treaty: the Antichrist will confirm a treaty guaranteeing Israel’s security. Then, after 3 ½ years, the Antichrist will set himself up in the Jewish Temple and proclaim that he is God. This abomination will initiate the Great Tribulation which will last 3 ½ years. ) In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation,(he will declare himself God) until the end that is decreed is poured out on him"(God's judgement)

Therefore, Daniel is indicating in this prophecy that the Antichrist will come from the Middle East.

[k_illuminati]

Again......
 1- ” you get the feeling the God that we know……

Sorry, I cannot debate your feeling s…..as you cannot debate mine. Same as for each of others interpretations of what is in the bible which I read (the new testaments).

No we cannot debate each others feelings and nobody can tell us how we should feel. However, the God of my understanding whom I have felt his presence is that of love and compassion. You will never hear of someone getting visited by an angel of light and having the feeling of being in the presence of evil. They may initially be frightened by the sheer power of the being, but in the Bible it is always followed by words of comfort telling them not to fear.

2- God (Allah) what we know of him (the creator) is what he allowed us to know and considering our mind limitation which he created and knows better than us (the creation).

Without a doubt our mind cannot comprehend the mind of God, but he does allow us to know certain things and has given us common knowledge with which we can understand to all necessity the extent of even the most complex of ideas.  for instance: when Jesus spoke in parables he did not explain them to the masses who continually rejected his message and they were left in their spiritual blindness as to wonder their meaning. To his disciples he explained them because they were willing to accept truth from him and because of this they were given more and more truth, not all at once because they would not be able to handle it, but gradually they gained more and more truth into the secrets of nature, reality, and the kingdom of heaven.

We will never in this lifetime be able to fully comprehend or know the ultimate truth, nor in a million. Its about the journey. We are here to learn a lesson. This lesson has nothing to do with the nature of this reality, but is a way of helping us understand higher principles and higher realities. When Yeshua spoke in parables he used everyday occurrences to explain things of a higher reality. How can you explain to a creature living in a 3d prison something that exist in the 4'th (ad infinitum) dimension? all you can see is "slices" of the 4th dimensional reality.

As that where you mentioned that he :" squeezed him within an inch of his life"
According to our reliable stories that the angle covered him with his wings (like in a huge)..

I would like to know form you if a big person in the street turned around and hugged you, will you be taken  back and almost out of breath? I will not find that strange at all, will you?

So your saying that an Angel doesn't know it's own strength?

5- During of the years Prophet Muhammad received the revelations, there were a period of time when the revelation stopped then returned and Prophet Muhammad missed the angle, because although some visits where hard on his being but he was willing to take whatever God puts him through because he accept what Allah the merciful willed for him.
Many other times the angle use to come and sit with him as one of his companions and he use to reveal and lots of time console him.

Unfortunately, during the time of Prophet Issa no one narrated to us how hard or easy was the revelation on him.
Do you know?

During His Ministry Jesus never once struggled with receiving any revelations. You would think something coming from God would be an easy and Joyous task and would come naturally as it did for him (obviously his disciples struggled for they were not able to fully comprehend everything Jesus spoke for unlike them He was not of this world and trying to explain the principles and of heaven can be like trying to teach a dog quantum physics) but of course He was the Son of God not a troubled spirit wrestling with demonic forces. Muhammad was probably a good person in search of true spiritual enlightenment, however evidence suggests that there were dark forces behind the "revelations"  as I will provide evidence for shortly.

Muhammad finally "submits." He then runs from the cave frantically in fear he is either mad or worse possessed.

Actually, Muhammad peace be upon him, repeated the recitation from the Quran that was revealed to him by Angle Gabriel. And he was not frantically in fear (this is an exaggeration for sure), he received the revelation for 23 years and he received and and reveal it in peace and passion and patience... that is not a behavior of a frantic man for sure.

"So I [Muhammad] read it, and he departed from me. And I awoke from my sleep, and it was though these words were written on my heart. (Tabari: Now none of God's creatures was more hateful to me than an (ecstatic) poet or a man possessed(poets were considered to be possessed in those days): I could not even look at them. I thought, Woe is me poet or possessed - Never shall Quraysh say this of me! I will go to the top of the mountain and throw myself down that I may kill myself and gain rest. So I went forth to do so and then, when I was midway on the mountain, I heard a voice from heaven saying "O Muhammad! thou are the apostle of God and I am Gabriel."

[b-]Quoted from Guillaume’s "The Life of Muhammad", [3], page 106, which is his rendition of Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat Rasulallah", the oldest available biography of Muhammad.
[/b]

The summary is that Muhammad was meditating in a cave when a spirit came upon him. It seized Muhammad, squeezed him, and commanded him to read or recite three times. Muhammad was confused and frightened not knowing how to respond. He was filled with fear and scared out of his wits! After this experience he left the cave and attempted suicide. He was going to kill himself! But this spirit, who then identified himself as the angel Gabriel, stopped him from carrying out his fateful deed. During the next three years or so Muhammad continued to live in deep depression and continued to attempt suicide. Each time, just before he could jump off a cliff to his death, the spirit appeared and spoke to him, telling him that he was the "apostle of God". This stopped Muhammad from jumping. Years later Muhammad began to believe what the spirit had been telling him: Muhammad was indeed the apostle of God.

It is interesting to examine what happened to Mohammad. Was he mentally unstable? Some Christians might think he was demon posessed. Deep depression and attempted suicide?

Prophet Muhammad was uncertain of what was revealed to him Allah willed for both reactions to be the same as humans).

He was indeed human

6- Muslims are following the orders of Allah, Allah ordered people to follow his prophets. Muslims are obeying Allah's orders. Christian and refusing to do so, and this was mentioned in the original Bible and the Torah. We are very anxious for the return of Christ who will reveal the truth and no one will be able to hide it any longer.

I desire nothing other than the truth, I just pray that people will be able to discern truth which is the word of God and Jesus Christ who is that word ..from the lies of Satan who is the master of lies.

7- How do you know how Prophet Muhammad felt and thought? You believe a person who interpreted his behavior who never took time to his whole story, otherwise no one will defame him by saying what you claimed :
"Muhammad's constant fits, foaming at the mouth and other manifestations certainly fit in with that idea".

Actually those descriptions come from the earliest written biography of Muhammad somewhere around 700-770 A.D

He was so gentle so forgiving so merciful, trustworthy, brave, honest,.... he was the greatest and the best of Allah's creation. still we honor him but we do not worship him.

A religion may be judged by its founder, and Muhammad seems to us a questionable character. He combined cruelty with magnanimity. When he took Mecca, only four people were put to death, but one of them was a singing girl who had composed satirical verses about him. Funny how Jesus let the hands of the wicked persecute, mock and kill him and he never uttered a word or laid a hand on anybody, but the "so gentle so forgiving so merciful, trustworthy, brave, honest,...." Muhammad couldn't even stand the idea of a young child making fun of him. Doesn't sound very Godly to me.

Sirat rasul Allah by Muhammad ibn Ishaq is indeed the earliest extant biography of the prophet Muhammad, and thus an extremely important work. Ibn Ishaq, his earliest biographer, was born in Medina about 707 and died inn Baghdad about 773

Prophet Muhammad never hit people who wished him a bodily harm hurt or by calling him names.
All his battles were to spread or defend Islam from its enemies who wished to eliminate Islam.

To spread or defend. From my research there is not much Islam won't do to spread or defend it's beliefs. It promotes lying unlike most religions, within Islam there are certain provisions under which lying is not simply tolerated, but actually encouraged.

Allow me tell you a story about Prophet Muhammad: One time he went to Ttaif to call its people to Islam and  his enemies sent their kids to stoned him and he was bleeding angle Gabriel asked him if he would ask god to punish them. Prophet Muhammad refused. you know why?  because God might have Muslims from their offspring's.

So if it hadn't been the offspring of a Muslim he would had a different song to sing?

I invite you to read Prophet Muhammad story.. I assure you that you cannot help yourself by fall in love with him and want to obey Our lord more sincerely and strongly.

I'll continue to do research and I do wish to obey and know our Lord more sincerely. 

[The Full Moon]

you said

   
1- It’s my belief that Satan knows God’s plan and has had a long time to study it and theology throughout the ages. So Satan has his own plan and part of that plan is to build an army and the primary method for that army is Islam.

2-There is no other mainstream religion that I know of that is so inherently evil. At this point I would like to point out that I am not bashing Muslims in any way. I know that every Muslim is NOT evil, but the Quran speaks for itself when it says:

But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, and seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)- Surah 9:5

Also surah's 8:39; 9:5; 9:29: 47:4 in the Muslim Qur'an are all 'divine' commandments to persecute Jews and Christians, to defeat them in battle and then to consign them either to slavery or to death.

3- A prayer by Sheik Ahmad Bahr on April 27, 2007, acting Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council, declared during a Friday sermon at a Sudan mosque that America and Israel will be annihilated and called upon Allah to kill Jews and Americans "to the very Last One".

5- "Oh Allah, vanquish the Jews and their supporters. Oh Allah, count their numbers, and kill them all, down to the very last one. Oh Allah, show them a day of darkness. Oh Allah, who sent down His Book, the mover of the clouds, who defeated the enemies of the Prophet defeat the Jews and the Americans, and bring us victory over them."

6- Allah's Apostle said, "You (i.e. Muslims) will fight with the Jews till some of them will hide behind stones. The stones will (betray them) saying, 'O 'Abdullah (i.e. slave of Allah)! There is a Jew hiding behind me; so kill him.' " HADITH Sahih Bukhari [4:52:176]

4- ISLAM, LIKE SATAN - WANTS ONLY SLAVES.

1* We believe that Allah is the only One who knows his plans and Satan hated Adam from the day he was created and he made it his mission in his long life is to mislead humans to blasphemy and end up in Hellfire like him.

Surah 17:53 as translated : Tell My bondmen to speak that which is kindlier. Lo! the devil soweth discord among them. Lo! the devil is for man an open foe.

Surah 4:76 as translated : Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil's strategy is ever weak.

Allah is has the ultimate power and Satan is only a creation of Allah and him and Muslims are in constant fight on a daily basis because they obey Allah against Satan tricks and temptations.

5:91 as translated : Satan seeketh only to cast among you enmity and hatred by means of strong drink and games of chance, and to turn you from remembrance of Allah and from (His) worship. Will ye then have done?

So kindly correct your believe because Muslims and Satan are enemies until the end of days.


2- I hope you did not mean or want to call Muslims names ….. but you are passing harsh judgment of Islam and its Holly book (Quran)  by calling it : so inherently evil. That is unacceptable.

4- As well as when you said : ISLAM, LIKE SATAN

It is clear to me that you have some misguided ideas about Islam and I thought you want to know about the true Islam, but if all these discussions has another purpose…. then we are on different paths.. and I do not wish to be misled. (We agreed on honesty)

You do not know our Quran, and we have very strict rule that not any common Muslims are or has the right to explain the verses in the Quran the way he pleased there are rules and knowledge you need to learn before doing so.
These are the words of our lord and we treated with utmost respect.

Now, let me get it closer to everyday situation : you know how in press they take one sentence and claim that someone said something so horrible … let us not do that with Quran. You want to know who is meant by the phrase you brought please read the whole sourah which was the last sourah revealed and set the rules for the Muslims after the life of prophet Muhammad and between the Muslims and others.

http://www.quranexplorer.com/quran/

lets get to Jews treatment of Prophets Allah sent to them:

And what about surah 36:30 translated as  :
Ah, the anguish for the bondmen! Never came there unto them a messenger but they did mock him!

And 23:40 translared as :
 Then We sent our messengers one after another. Whenever its messenger came unto a nation they denied him; so We caused them to follow one another (to disaster) and We made them bywords. A far removal for folk who believe not! (44)

Do you think that when Prophet Jesus come back and call the people to worship Allah all Jewish or Christian will follow him, as Muslims we will. That what Islam ordered us to do, and we will.

3- I thought we are not going to political debates? That person was taking about removing the unjust the Palestrina has been suffering for soooooo many years under occupation. Thank God that you were not born in Gaza or West bank and suffer what they do every day.
I am here to talk about religion and politics, so I will not comment on these statements any more.

5 - 6 -Isn’t it in your book that Jesus will come back and fight the Jews lead by Antichrist because they will fight him and try to kill him as they have killed and tried to kill the Prophets that God sent to them before.

Read the translation from the Quran of surah 2:61-62
And when ye said: O Moses! We are weary of one kind of food; so call upon thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of that which the earth groweth - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its corn and its lentils and its onions. He said: Would ye exchange that which is higher for that which is lower? Go down to settled country, thus ye shall get that which ye demand. And humiliation and wretchedness were stamped upon them and they were visited with wrath from Allah. That was because they disbelieved in Allah's revelations and slew the prophets wrongfully. That was for their disobedience and transgression. .(61) Lo! Those who believe (in that which is revealed unto thee, Muhammad), and those who are Jews, and Christians, and Sabians - whoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - surely their reward is with their Lord, and there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve

Now, Muslims mission is very clear:  When Jesus comes back we will support him and fight with him the Jews.. He is sent by Allah and following his orders and we will too.

What do you think you will do when Jesus comes back? Are all Jews and Christian are going to support him and follow him and him message? I hope so. Because all Muslims wish good to all humans.

Allah knows best, may Allah forgive me if i misspoke.