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Author Topic: religion inspired murder?  (Read 1308 times)

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Offline whatislam

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religion inspired murder?
« on: Tuesday 13 January 2009, 04:39 »
so, i have a kinda weird question that i am curious to what other people would think:

i have been reading a book about a Mormon family and it is called "Under the banner of heaven" (in case anyone is interested in it).  it is a factual account of a murder that took place in Utah - of a woman and child by a Mormon man and his brother.

it is difficult to summarise in a short post but as best i can --- a Mormon man who had worked hard all his life and been a good man, lost his business and everything collapsed around him.  he somewhat started to lose his sanity under the pressure and, in desperation for the children's lives, his wife fled from him with the children - she escaped with the help of her sister-in-law and left with the children to Florida.

at the same time, the man came under the sway of a very extreme mormon preacher as did four of his brothers.  after his wife had escaped - the man began to receive "messages" from God telling him he had to kill the sister-in-law and her child as they were the devil.  i think he knew that these were not messages from God but his own anger and mental instability at his broken situation... so when he went with his brother to go and kill the woman - he could not do it.

however, the younger brother who had no reason (not the husband - this girl was also his sister-in-law, the wife of another brother) to feel anger toward this girl and had no reason to wish to kill her at all...  he took the knife and went into the house and murdered the girl and her baby - because he DID believe that the messages his brother was receiving was the word of God.

when they were arrested the elder brother realised that the younger one would incriminate him - because he insisted on telling the whole truth... and so he said he had received another message from God that he must kill him.  the two men were in adjoining cells in the police station and when the younger brother heard the message - he went to the bars so that the elder brother could strangle and kill him.  however, the elder brother could not get sufficient pressure to kill the younger one because of the bars interfering and the younger brother simply fell to the floor in a faint - then the police returned and separated the two brothers.

throughout the whole trial the younger brother has never denied that he murdered both mother and child - and never disputed his sentence and i think his sincerity was obvious as although, technically, he was the murderer he has been given a life sentence to spend in prison.

the elder brother tried to deny and tried all sorts of tactics to try to avoid imprisonment and he was given the death penalty which (if i remember right) i think he is appealing still?  perhaps it has been carried out (i am not sure).
i am interested in what others think?  i know many "madmen" hear voices telling them to kill people and sometimes they carry this out - other times they fight the voice. 

is the younger brother a devout and obedient servant who was simply doing the will of God as a truly religious man?  he has never shown any remorse for the murders and is apparently a model prisoner - he still believes absolutely that he simply did the will of God.  what do others think?

oftentimes killers hear voices that they WANT to hear.  i am sure that is the case for the elder brother - this younger brother did not hear voices, however he believed that the messages were, without doubt, the will of God expressed through his elder brother.

was this just a jinn tricking the older brother?  if the younger brother did these actions (which benefit him not at all) as the will of God, then what does that mean exactly...  does anyone have any thoughts on this at all? ??? 

if you want to read or find out more about it through google etc. - their names were Ron and Dan Lafferty. ??? ??? ???
« Last Edit: Tuesday 13 January 2009, 11:41 by Sami Yusuf Islam »

Offline whatislam

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Re: a question
« Reply #1 on: Tuesday 13 January 2009, 04:43 »
i don't know why but the post above came out without any paragraph breaks...
which makes it difficult to read - but never mind it was just an idle question anyway, i guess.

Offline Sami Yusuf Islam

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Re: a question
« Reply #2 on: Tuesday 13 January 2009, 10:32 »
because you copy-pasted from another source, and the paragraph marks were not preserved.
 
anyway, let us start where we should:
 
1. the subject (the title of your topic) is : a question.
 
this is a totally inacceptable lazy way of posting.....
 
just imagine if everybody started a new topic called " a question" ........
 
instead you should have used the content of your topic question.....
 
 

Offline whatislam

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Re: a question
« Reply #3 on: Tuesday 13 January 2009, 10:38 »
hello sami yusuf islam - no i didn't cut and paste.  i wrote in the box just as i am doing now...

but i was using safari rather than firefox which i think might have been the issue.

do feel free to edit the title if you think it isn't clear enough.  i am not sure anyone will get through the bulky post though (without paragraphs it is a bit off-putting).

i am happy for a change to the title - i don't if you want suggestions from me or whether prefer to change it yourself? 

i might suggest --- religion inspired murder?  or something similar???

but whatever you think. 

Offline whatislam

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Re: a question
« Reply #4 on: Tuesday 13 January 2009, 10:42 »
and just to add - but what do you think???   

i read this book and i don't know.......


Offline Sami Yusuf Islam

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Re: religion inspired murder?
« Reply #5 on: Tuesday 13 January 2009, 11:43 »
thank you. I have added the paragraph marks and changed the title of the topic. thank you . 

Offline whatislam

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Re: religion inspired murder?
« Reply #6 on: Tuesday 13 January 2009, 11:51 »
thank you sami yusuf islam!

it is a bit of a random post ---- i have just got stuck with this book in my head, trying to work out was this right or wrong.  i have got so confused now i can't think straight at all about it - so i thought other viewpoints might help me clarify what i think.

i am not sure that my summary is sufficient explanation anyway - but we'll see whether someone has a viewpoint or opinion that they want to offer or not, i guess.

happy new year - and thanks for the changes.

Offline The Full Moon

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Re: religion inspired murder?
« Reply #7 on: Tuesday 13 January 2009, 16:09 »
Dear whatislam;

I think the first thing came to mind when I read your post is how naive we are when it comes to what the devil and his followers can do, and how easy it is from them to persuade us that what they want us to do is for seek of Gods rewards.

I believe that the devil got to the first man though his pride which was bruised because his wife left him, and we know from history that the devil does say things and other people hear it, and in some cases the weak might be misled to believe that they are hearing orders from God.(Jinn's whisper)

The other brother might have been convinced by the conviction of his older brother.And he was seeking to follow God's orders. He did not think for a second that God does not order the killing of innocent people.(Human's whispers)

False illusions, misguidance, and many other devilish whispers from Jinns and humans are what we have been warned about in Surat alNass

In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
[114:1]   Say, "I seek refuge in the Lord of the people.
[114:2]   "The King of the people.
[114:3]   "The god of the people.
[114:4]   "From the evils of sneaky whisperers.
[114:5]   "Who whisper into the chests of the people.
[114:6]   "Be they of the jinns, or the people." salam

Offline Peace Counselor

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Re: religion inspired murder?
« Reply #8 on: Tuesday 13 January 2009, 18:36 »
I don't understand it. It goes against the Ten Commandments (#5 or #6, depending on the sect that you practice). #5/#6 says "Thou shall not kill"... so it's hard to take into account that it's a "religious" murder. I personally see them as more of a couple of madmen who have become corrupted and taken under control of the Devil than a man receiving messages from God. Even if the messages were received from the Devil, I suppose you could consider it a 'religious inspired murder', but not from a good/Holy source.

After reading over The Full Moon's post, I believe we share the same idea... only he managed to explain his ideas a lot better than I did  ;D

Offline whatislam

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Re: religion inspired murder?
« Reply #9 on: Thursday 15 January 2009, 02:30 »
thank you both so much for your replies.

i also believe that God does not order the killing of innocent people.  although i can understand why he might be confused as to that point because there are instances in the Old Testament which seem to do exactly that.  however, i believe that the Old Testament is divinely-inspired, as are ALL Holy Scriptures, and although i do not know the Old Testament too well - i feel that all scriptures should be read in a spiritual way rather than a literal way and if when reading a scripture you do not feel divinely uplifted then you must accept that your understanding or interpretation of that scripture is not full or complete.

that said, in the case of the younger brother, if his discernment is lacking that is one thing over which he has little control (i am sure we would all like to be fully wise but we have to make do with whatever intelligence and discernment we have) but his obedience and self-sacrifice and total trust/faith are not in doubt.  so i still remain a little confused as to the whole thing. 

but never mind!

thanks for the replies   :) :) :)   

 



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